Having received a number of letters requesting consideration, the Board of Directors would like to solicit opinions regarding a motion to expand the scope of the SCA to include all of Asia and the "New World", and extend the time period to include classical pirates. Given the number of SCA participants already doing research and personas in these areas, it seems that there is enough of an interest for this motion to be seriously considered.
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 6:52 AMAsian's already traded with Europe and would have been seen along the silk road and so fit into the current format of the SCA. The new world had little true contact with Europe except for the explorers that visited the new lands and stole the gold. Beside here in the USA we have groups that cover this period of time already. And if by classical pirates do they mean movie pirates, true Caribbean pirates, Barbary pirates, privateers and which privateers are they talking about, or all of the above? Pirates existed in the current time period covered by the SCA. They are just not the ones that wore the coats and knee boots of the 1700's. Yet again there are groups dedicated just to the pirates and they even do ship battles which are very fun. Do we expand the time period through the Queen Anne's War? Why not include the French and Indian War? Oh, wait... There are already groups dedicated to this time period.
I have modified my persona to fit into the SCA time line by moving to a late 4th century persona instead of a 3rd century persona. And in Atlantia that is not considered Middle Ages which they define as starting in 600 AD. The scope has been picked, the only problem was not setting a start time. Just saying pre 1600 and Middle Ages leads to confussion on what the time period included.
Digitized books on the Middle Ages
books.google.com/books
books.google.com/books
books.google.com/books
books.google.com/books
books.google.com/books
books.google.com/books
books.google.com/books -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 7:20 AMyes but there is already an inherent vagueness to the cut off point since no two SCA-dians will agree that 1600 is the end, or 1603 ( when Elizabeth actually died, to 1610 (for round even numbers), or even including cavalier ( as we do out here in Antir) which affords the chance of investigating all the way up to 1670-80. Is it really that big a deal to allow the cut off point to go up to 1720-50?
and I beg to differ, the quick gloss you give to the new world is a bit reductive. there were many colonies being founded, several attempts during Elizabeth's lifetime, and large portions of what would evolve into the "Carribbean Pirate" melieu were initially settled in the late elizabethan period (Read about "Elizabeth's Pirates" and you will have a tale of alot of swashbuckl-y adventures very Pirates of the Carribbean in feel and tone). The very fact that engravings of natives of America, and many other lands for that matter, survive in the archives of european scholars proves that even in period there was an interest in learning about these peoples, granted the motives and methodologies in period may not have been up to snuff by modern standards, but the knowledge of these groups and peoples existed and was being looked into even then.
I say, expand. If we are going to have pirate wanna be's there anyway, lets challenge them to raise the bar. At present they can mix in our midst and look as out of place as their heart desires because even if they were to be spot on period they'd still not be fully "part of the group" since we don't recognize their timeline. Lets include them and then start treating their efforts with the same creative support and criticism we give one another in our earlier period endeavors. I for one would love to see a well realized 1695 long coat, large hat, fully be-robboned, full bottomed wig sporting , high heel wearing "privateer".....I'm just sayin' if they're gonna do it lets expect the same level of commitment to it as we devote to our own works. -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 7:49 AMI will have to concur with Joel on this. More so due to the nature of the expansion would also create better access to information to those who wish to have the pirate persona. It would allow individuals to have exposure to what was "of the period" where they may not have had access to the information any other way.
Truly, the best way to grow a body of information is in the sharing of information.
Finally, stability in anything actually comes from being plyable. A little flexabliity may be good. -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 8:51 AMHere's an interesting read. I am not presenting this as factual information or as a way of proving any point, but it does raise a few interesting questions that warrant further examination:
www.newworldcelts.org/United%...tes.html
A friend and colleague of mine just finished a graduate degree in archaeology at Harvard and was involved with a dig on Cape Anne that was alleged to be the site of a 4th century c.e. Celtic settlement. It's all just very interesting and provocative to me and a source for much imaginative wanderings. Who knows what will come of all of this. I will leave it for the real mundane experts to decide, in the meantime, these allegations are a wonderful "fly in the ointment". -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:01 AMI guess I would vote "no" to the extending of the time frame but for an entirely different reason than has been mentioned...
GUNPOWDER
Or more correctly the growth in the use of gunpowder firearms in the time frame being suggested.
My gut feel is that the primary reason that things work well today with what is essentially 10,000 BC to somewhere around 1600 AD is that there were no "overwhelming" technical advances in combat technology that had anywhere near the impact that firearms had.
So if we go to 1750 AD, do we add "rubber band rifles" to the heavy fighting field? I don't even fight and it would ruin it for me. Kinda like adding dwarves with cannons (steam or gunpowder) ruins a fantasy realm based on Tolkien type mythos. -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:44 AMJust what I was getting at in short. :-)
You got it in while I was still typing.
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 3:33 PMWell said. That would be my fear as well. -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 3:35 PMOops! should have read the responses...dang april fools!
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:40 AMNo doubt there were pirates during the currently covered period. They are even well documented if you want to digg a little deaper into the history of ships and sea warfare of the middle ages. There are even well documented pirates of the Baltic Sea that are within the scope of the current SCA setting.
There were settelments in the "New World" probably as early as 400 CE and proven as early as around 1000 CE. Yet, to even the scholars of the time this was not common knowledge. Columbus got lucky and made his trip there and back yet he was not the first. There is evidance that suggest contact with South America a couple hundred years before. Not proven as fact mind you. Columbus had some knowledge of land to the west and thought that maybe it was connected to the lands to the east. A bold idea at the time.
So we push to Colonial America then pirates then Americian Revolution then F&I then the American Civil War then the old west then WW1. Where do we stop? All of these times have dedicated groups. You may point out that the Vikings and the La Tene Celts and the Iron Age Celts also have dedicated groups outside the SCA. Do we bring rifles to the tourney and the battle field?
I belong to an Iron age Island Celt group and a Privateer group, I am neither in the SCA but I did base my persona off the earliest debated start of the Middle Ages because of the culture I was interested in studying. Then moved my time line up to better fit into the standard accepted start of the middle ages. Trying to stay within the SCA time frame.
Study a persona within the given time frame of the SCA that interest you and if you want to do another time frame than join a group that does that time frame. I believe in a little give but at some point there has to be an end.
It is easier to accept the earlier periods into the SCA since then you do not have guns and they had weapons that can translate into tourney and SCA melee fighting. And yes firearm were known as early as the 1400s but they were not common.
Join a society that fits your interest. Don't expect a society to change because you want to do something outside it's scope. If you can document contact with a culture in the given time frame then go for it even if it is in the new world.
God, I sound like one of those people I usually argue with but, someone has to play the devils advocate.
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Sniff! (was Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 9:55 AMSomething smells fishy in the state of .... Where are we anyway? If it's Tuesday, it must be Volgograd.
This sounds like another April Fools jest... -
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Re: Sniff! (was Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:02 AMWell do I feel stupid if it is a joke...
Argh...
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Re: Sniff! (was Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:09 AMNAW. Tuesday is lodge night!
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Re: Sniff! (was Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:46 AMDAMN!!!!!! And I took the bait and ran with it.
Oh well, I love a good debate anyway.
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Re: Sniff! (was Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 11:00 AMThat's what I was thinking...
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:03 AMif anything rather than 'allow' pirates or anything like that they should get more specific with the current scope. Officially delare that the range is 300ad to 1605, so there is no longer any question.
Don't pander to the people who don't want to play within our guidelines. It undermines the purpose of the game.
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:23 AMI wouldn't get too worked up about this folks...it IS April 1 after all.
And simply looking up this guys profile and some of his other comments/threads leads me to the conclusion that he wouldn't have and inside line on this sort of information. But I'd be happy to email a couple friends who sit on the BoD to find out.
Just sayin'.... -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:43 AMwell, joke or no joke, I stand by my position that at some point the above should be considered. Now yes it does present the problem of gun powder, but we've managed to navigate th murky waters of trebuchets and greek fire and the organization is still intact. There are all sorts of period concepts that we have selectively edited out of our interpurtation of period recreation. Slavery being acceptable, abuse of women and children being overlooked by the populace, indentured servitude, inquisitions, witch burnings, mass killings or purges of Jews and or Moors, burning heretics at the stake ( be they protestant or catholic depending on your take), Christians being thrown to the lions, crucifixions, bear baiting, gladiatorial to the death combat, jousting, .........the list could go on and on, suffice it to say that if gunpowder were the only obstacle to broadening our time line I think we are all addaptable and creative enough to be able to make that leap with grace and aplomb. -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:52 AMI still want to use a Syphon Pump flame thrower on the battle field. Period evidance suggest that they had the technology and used it atleast from ships. We can use water instead of flaming fuel. It is already within the given timke frame so lets add that to melee combat. :-)
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:13 PMWe haven't gotten the pirates or native americans down here yet, the badly down plastic samurias are hard enough to deal with. I'm pretty sure that would kill the fun for many. Guess now would be the time to start looking into living history groups specific to the middle ages... -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:24 PMYes, it is an April Fools joke!
Good grief people.... I'm the 1/2 the team that created the "Roman Duct Tape" joke a couple of years ago! I figured it would be easy to figure out....
(Please stop emailing the BoD now...)
Dilan -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:26 PMand how many emails did you get about the duct tape joke? does it surprise you you got a bunch on this?
Grins
J -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:41 PMActually, we got a cease and desist request from the British Archeological Society on the Roman Duct Tape joke.... THEY thought it was funny, but apparently a LOT of people beleived it.
The fact that all I had to do was put "The BoD" and people freaked is kind of funny....
Dilan -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:51 PMin this little island of misfit toys, a statement like the above starter is like chucking a torch in a tar pit no matter what day it comes on. And I confess I made my initial reply sans caffination before going to work....had I been thinking about the date I migth have caught the joke....might....but sans caffination all bets are off.
J -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 1:00 PM4/1 never translated to April fools day. I never think about these things, even after the DHMO post on Vulgar Unicorn. Never crossed my mind.
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:56 PMNot worked up... Just lively debate....
But, I still want to use a Syphon Pump flame thrower on the battle field. :-)
So, what was the Roman Duct Tape joke? -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 1:11 PMWe faked an on-line newsletter from "The British Archeological Society" (As opposed to the British Scociety of Archeology - the real deal). Story in the middle of page 2 was that at a dig on Hadrian's Wall, they found a piece of armor that had apparently cracked, and been repaired with stripes of lead rubbed cloth that were glued on as some sort of cosmetic cover for a repair.
We had photos of the dig, the professor (Ruben Pfalze), even doctored up an "X-ray" of the "artifact".
Website even had working links.
Worked like a charm!
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 2:15 PMNow that's a creative joke. In fact, it made me snort a little. : )
However, Joel is quite correct. This sort of thing has been a BIG bone of contention throughout the SCA for many, many years. *sigh*
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Fri, April 4, 2008 - 12:03 AMOkay, now i HAVE to ask ...
What is the Roman Duct Tape joke?
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 8:19 PMwhats the fun if no one plays along?
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 8:58 PMNow that I've read through all the posts, I thought the OP was very funny. I knew it was a fake at the get go, because I am on the Announcements list and the Grand Council list. Happy April Fools Day!
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 6:59 AMOK, know that this is a joke now... but I do have one real comment. I think that when folks think of the new world, they tend to think of New England and the south. Mexico and the Southwest were actively being colonized in late period. In fact, the "Kingdom of New Mexico" and Santa Fe were established in the 1590's and 16-naughts respectively. So it wasn't just intrepid explorers and Natives being brought back as curiosities. I'm not sure about including Native Americans, but why not a Spanish colonial persona? -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 7:48 AM"I'm not sure about including Native Americans, but why not a Spanish colonial persona?"
Other than the sea crews and captains, wasn't most of the flow of people one way at this time? From Europe to the New World? Part of the whole SCA thing seems to be having a reasonable justification why "my character from Timbuktu" would be encountering "your character from Outer Mongolia" here in Medieval Europe. I don't recall much talk of New World colonists returning to Europe after their time in the colonies... -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 8:37 AMNot sure of the dates but a lot of the early statesmen travelled back and forth although I think it was mostly OP. Ben Franklin comes to mind. Spending years in France afterwards. -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 9:21 AMThat was well after 1600. Since Jamestown was not settled until 1607. -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 9:48 AMOP
That's what I thought.
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 12:12 PMVirginia Dare (born August 18, 1587, date of death unknown) was the first child born in the Americas to English parents, Eleanor (or Ellinor/Elyonor) and Ananias Dare. She was born into a short-lived colony on Roanoke Island in present-day North Carolina, USA. What became of Virginia and the other colonists has become an enduring mystery. The fact of her birth is known because the leader of the colony, Eleanor Dare's father, John White, returned to England to seek assistance for the colony. When White returned three years later, the colonists were gone.
During the past four hundred years, Virginia Dare has become a prominent figure in American myth and folklore, symbolizing different things to different groups of people. She has been featured as a main character in books, poems, songs, comic books, television programs and films. Her name has been used to sell different types of products from vanilla products to wine and spirits. Many places in North Carolina and elsewhere in the Southern United States have been named in her honor.
Ponce de León returned with equipment and settlers to start a colony in 1521, but they were driven off by repeated attacks from the native population. The earliest records of inland Florida are those of conquest survivors. Pánfilo de Narváez explored Florida's West Coast in 1528, but was lost at sea upon his attempted seaward escape to Mexico. One of his expedition's officers, Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca, survived nine years trudging between Florida and Mexico, returned to Spain and published his observations. He inspired Hernando de Soto's invasion of Florida in 1539. Members of his expedition later published details of Florida's natives, their lifestyles and behavior. In 1559, Tristán de Luna y Arellano established a brief settlement in Pensacola; it was abandoned in 1561.
The French began taking an interest in the area, as well, leading the Spanish to accelerate their colonization plans. Jean Ribault led an expedition to Florida in 1562, and René Goulaine de Laudonnière founded Fort Caroline in what is now Jacksonville, in 1564, as a haven for Huguenot settlers. In response, Spain destroyed the settlement and founded San Agustín (St. Augustine in English) in 1565. Settled by Pedro Menéndez de Avilés, it was the first permanent European settlement in the current territory of the United States. From this base of operations, the Spanish began building Roman Catholic missions throughout what is today the southeastern United States.
In 1565, Menéndez de Avilés attacked Fort Caroline, killed all the French soldiers defending it (except Catholics), and renamed the Fort San Mateo. Two years later, Dominique de Gourgues recaptured the fort from the Spanish and slaughtered all of the Spanish defenders. In 1586, English sea captain, and sometimes pirate, Sir Francis Drake plundered and burned St. Augustine.
John Smith and other members of the Jamestown Colony sought information about the fate of the colonists in 1607. One report indicated that the Lost Colonists took refuge with friendly Chesapeake Indians, but Chief Powhatan claimed his tribe had attacked the group and killed most of the colonists. Powhatan showed Smith certain artifacts he said had belonged to the colonists, including a musket barrel and a brass mortar. The Jamestown Colony received reports of some survivors of the Lost Colony and sent out search parties, but none were successful. Eventually they determined they were all dead.[1]
Raleigh's plan in 1584 for colonization in the "Colony and Dominion of Virginia" (which included the present-day states of North Carolina and Virginia) in North America ended in failure at Roanoke Island, but paved the way for subsequent colonies.[3] His voyages were funded primarily by himself and his friends, never providing the steady stream of revenue necessary to start and maintain a colony in America. (Subsequent colonization attempts in the early 17th century were made under the joint-stock Virginia Company which was able to pull together the capital necessary to create successful colonies.)
In 1587, Raleigh attempted a second expedition again establishing a settlement on Roanoke Island. This time, a more diversified group of settlers was sent, including some entire families, under the governance of John White. After a short while in America, White was recalled to England in order to find more supplies for the colony. He was unable to return the following year as planned, however, because the Queen had ordered that all vessels remain at port in case they were needed to fight the Spanish Armada. It was not until 1591 that the supply vessel arrived at the colony, 4 years later, only to find that all colonists had disappeared. The only clue to their fate was the word "CROATOAN" and letters "CRO" carved into separate tree trunks, suggesting the possibility that they were either massacred, absorbed or taken away by Croatans or perhaps another native tribe. Other speculation includes their being swept away or lost at sea during the stormy weather of 1588 (credited with aiding in the defeat of the Spanish Armada). However, it is worth noting that a hurricane prevented John White and the crew of the supply vessel from actually visiting Croatoan to investigate the disappearance, and no further attempts at contact were recorded for some years. Whatever the fate of the settlers, the settlement is now remembered as the "Lost Colony of Roanoke Island".
just the begining of the info I was able to find in about 10 minutes, but it obviously predates 1600, and in fact is a growing social curent throughout the 1500s to varrying degrees in different countries in europe. -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 6:35 AMThe John White Colony or as it is better known The Lost Colony, although an English settlement is not listed as a chartered English colony. I do find that odd since they were alloted 500 acres and were to be the first city of Virginia.
"On 7 January 1587 the "Cittie of Ralegh in Virginia" was incorporated. No copy of the articles of incorporation is known to exist, but other documents clearly indicate that the city was to be governed by Governor John White and twelve assistants. "
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 6:42 AMi just decided to click on this topic today, and another one disappointed that is an April's Fool.
i'm glad you brought this up Joel. i live in Dare County and work on Roanoke Island. It is disappointing to me that the New World and all that was going on concerning some of Elizabeth I's decisions during this time can not be explored in the SCA. There is evidence that there was travel back and forth, up until the war broke out with Spain and no ships were allowed to be used for anything other than the war effort. Two Indians did travel from the New World to the English Court in 1584.
Here is the Wikipedia page on Manteo : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manteo_(Croatan)
i could not find a page on Wanchese. Guess i better get writing one up. LOL
i did find a page and note, it is usually taught in the 4th - 6th grades, but apparently only on the east coast. i have noticed that many tourists that come from the west coast have never heard about The Lost Colony and think that settlement started with Jamestown.
Last year at Pennsic i saw a man with his children in the merchant area. All 3 were dressed in Native American garb. People were looking and whispering slightly, nothing rude mind you. It made me smile to think....this is exactly how it would have been the first time a Native American traveled to Europe.
Not only is this the land of the first known English speaking child born in the New World, but also the land of Blackbeard. Of course he's a bit later. That era, i would think to be left out. BUT there were pirates in England and some very famous ones, late 1400's and early 1500's. -
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Re: SCA Board to to expand scope?
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 8:03 AMwell not to mention skraelings, natives brought back by norse visitors centuries earlier.
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