Bad News from Pennsic?

topic posted Tue, August 16, 2005 - 12:59 AM by  K-Lee, just ...
i was just sent two disturbing articles. any word on the truth of these?
  • From others I have heard this is absolutely true, not a rumor or joke and they are taking it very seriously to keep others safe.
    • A very sad thing indeed

      I have posted on other threads about this. I feel like I have felt for the past year. Like no one cares or is listening.

      I feel very sorry for the poor girl that was raped at knife point. That must be a truely terrifieing experiance.

      • The rape happened to a friend of a friend of mine. Yes it happened, without a doubt. From what I understand, she was in the hospital for injuries, not "just" the rape kit.
        I understand why someone would question "a friend of a friend" or "this person heard it from this person". I don't understand why someone would question a news brief like that in both the newspaper and the Pennsic Independent. I'm thankful it WAS in the papers- the need for safety at Pennsic can no longer be denied. Women are attacked- and so many people dismiss it as rumour. Which only causes more people to feel OK walking alone- more people as possible victims.
        Before it came out in the independent one friend of mine was told by security that it was a rumour and that the only reason police cars were there was because someone accidentally called 911. That friend later found the head of security who confirmed the attack.
        A very good friend of mine was attacked last year. She reported it to security, but (unbeknownst to her at the time) not to the police. When I was helping her follow up on it later, the Cooper's denied it ever happened and I was told she would not be able to get any reports from security...about this attack that happened to HER.
        I heard rumour of another attack this year, in addition to the rape. I don't know if there's anything to it, though.

        I wish the girl a speedy recovery process, both physically and emotionally.
        • <I don't understand why someone would question a news brief like that in both the newspaper and the Pennsic Independent.>
          because i tend to believe first hand info before i believe the media, any day.
          additionally the term "assault" can mean a lot of things, and rape, in my opinion is much more violent, with a meaning more specific. that said, the reports using each term, i wasn't quite sure. rather than listen to the grapevine, which has made it all the way to AZ, i thought i'd post it here, wondering if any attendees might know more of a story to clear up, "assault" versus "rape at knifepoint".
          it is a concern we all should share.
      • I agree completely. When I first joined tribe and this list I replied to a newby post about what to do or watch for at pennsic and when I warned people about this sort of thing I got a lot of flaming irrational responses from people trying to shout it down and bury the issue as so often happens in the SCA.

        I am sure you can find it in the archives here still too, so I know how you feel.

        No one wants to listen about the negative stuff but if we don't pay attention and plan to help prevent it we may as well lay out a welcome mat for scum and vermin to take advantage of the situation and ruin our events and victimize our people.
  • We don't know for sure to what degree, but yes bad things did happen. An unescorted lady walking through one of the isolated wooded areas was attacked. The rumors say it was locals who snuck in, but I can imagine with 16000 people and free alcohol, it was bound to happen at some point. I am sory for her (and the possible other 2).

    The major rule for most encampments was no females went anywhere unescorted. Probably we should have been following this rule all along as a matter of chivalry. Good in one way, bad in another. I couldn't get to any of the al Haflas.
    • with 16000 people and the chivalry most of the men show in the SCA, it is to bad she didn't call out. What is worse getting stabbed by the knife or getting raped? Plus if she called/screemed out the attackers most likly would have ran than use the knife.
      • The rape occured at 3am on a remote path, I believe the southernmost part of E26. One can't assume she didn't call out as camps are a distance away from that part of the path and likely wouldn't have heard.
        Additionally, as there were two attackers it would have been very easy for one to hold a hand over her mouth the entire time- blocking her screams.
        Some people find it easier to blame the victim.

        Just like in any city, there is risk associated with a woman walking alone late at night, in the dark, in a secluded area. That's just common sense. I believe all women should be escorted at night, especially in light of the last two years.
        At the same time, "she should have screamed" or "I wonder if
        the scantily-clad and suggestive belly dancer is sometimes making herself a target at a very dark & rowdy party." (quote from another group) dangerously harkens back to the days of "blame the victim" mentality.
        A person needs to use common sense. Remember that drinking is often associated with poor decision making and dulling of senses/instincts that can help keep one safe. Remember to not put yourself in situations where you might be a victim (like walking alone at night).
        However, rape is a crime about control and power, sex just happens to be the weapon. Rapists attack women in their homes. Rapists are for the most part men attacking women (and girls) of ALL ages, even the elderly. It is not "the fault" of a woman who happens to be pleasing to the eyes or scantily clad. It is not "the fault" of a woman who truly believed that they would kill her if she screamed, so she stayed quiet - death or rape? Survival instincts would choose rape.

  • There was a time when SCA events were safe and when you'd never even have to worry about theft or any other problems. Today, it is more difficult than ever to create an environment that can be honored by all who attend. With thousands of people coming together in such a small space, it is a wonder that the book "Murder at the War" hasn't come true, yet.

    As a community we need to come together and look out for each other more closely. People should not go out alone, regardless of gender. Last year there were a couple of mugglings that targeted both a man and a woman. I knew the woman and her life hasn't been the same since.
    • In my camp we never let any one go out alone after dark. That includes (although it sounds silly) going to the port-a-castle that was less then a block away. Some of the women in our camp got mad at this, but I explained to them that I would rather them be mad at me then hurt by some one else.
      • yep. no one leaves camp after dark in our household either without an escort. Including those who are visiting and came before dark. They get someone to walk them home. Usually two or three someones.

        Portacastles are less than 100 feet away from the gate, and we still escort folks. Especially during heavy party nights. We even loan flashlights on those nights... never know what you might step in or sit in if you don't have one.

        • I've said it before And I'll say it again - walking alone at War is trusting 15,000+ total strangers with your safety. I don't know about you guys, but I'm simply not that trusting.

          In the 32 years Tuchux have been around, not one wench has ever been assaulted, attacked, or even looked at wrong. That is because our guys care about us and we are never left unattended. Can it fuck with your happy at War? Not if the alternative is getting raped and stabbed.

          I noticed a few more tikis around the dark areas of the swamp this year, keeping previously dark stretches of road well lit. What a great idea. I heard that they were donated - and a very necessary donation it was. If every camp in the swamp could donate one or two tikis and kerosene, we could light every inch of the swamp, taking the attacker's playground away and making attacks less convenient. Just something to think about.
          • Ummm wildcat...

            Just so that you know, that in years past those same guardians of your virtue have also been know to assult without provocation (happened to me), destroy property (happened at the Pennsic Inn), and abuse hospitality (observed by many.) Sorry to tarnish that shining image of the 'chux...;)

            You want to keep things safe? Lets start with eliminating all non-members that have less than three years of membership in the parent organization.

            Admission to Pennsic is a privellege, not a right. As such, it could be a privellege reserved to members of a certain standing, like three or more years of seniority.

            From all that I've seen over the decades of Pennsics and other events, the majority of trouble comes from those who have no investment in the SCA. They only come to suck booze, suck face (among other things), and/or suck blood.
            • Last year the guy who broke into Wildcat's tent was someone who worked for the Porta-castle company, not a Pennsic attendee. We have no idea if it was Pennsic attendees or crashing townsfolk who raped the girl this year. This year a long-standing bartender served a dangerous drink to a woman that made her very ill. It's not just newbies who are causing trouble. There are 13,000 or so people all gathered together- there are GOING to be problems.
              There also seem to be lots of people who are not official members of the SCA who DO have an interest in history and culture- and that's why they are at Pennsic. Quite a few of the ME dancers seem to fall into this catagory. Fighters have to authorize, so have to join- people with other cultural pursuits, especially that fall outside of the A&S realm, do not.
              • > Samira wrote:
                >Last year the guy who broke into Wildcat's tent was
                >someone who worked for the Porta-castle company, not a
                >Pennsic attendee. We have no idea if it was Pennsic
                >attendees or crashing townsfolk who raped the girl this year.

                This was a question I had been just about ready to ask, did we know where the attackers came from. It has been mentioned in other threads that we might consider outside uniformed officers to be present at the event. Some events in the area I just moved from had such presences and the officers enjoyed the sites and booths as they walked around the fields. This kept some of the more blatant activities down and gave a constant presence throughout the field in addition to the staff. Who knows they might enjoy Pennsic even though they are on duty and can't really take in *all* the sights. But they would add a very visible presence to aid the security force that we already have of our own. It would disuade the really tupid people from town and might curb those that walked in through the gates to camp. However, our best bet as many have already stated, is to make sure there are several people available to act as escorting groups to those who need to leave after twilight when the lighting is growing dim.

                As for the incident (attack?) at Wildcat's tent, that would best be solved by someone from event security accompaning all off site people, like the Porta-castle company, when they make their rounds through the site. If they must access a camp, although I can't figure out why most would have a reason, then someone from the camp should also be present. No one is stupid enough to try something when they have a leash like that.

                > Mukhtar Durr wrote:
                > You want to keep things safe? Lets start with eliminating all
                > non-members that have less than three years of
                > membership in the parent organization.

                Else where it has been stated that SCA has the right to make such an entrance requirement. while this is true I have to agree with Jackal that this won't neccessarily stop anything. The perimeter would have to be completely secure and locked down, to prevent off site access without walking through the gate. The perimeter and gates would have to be manned 24/7 for the duration of the event. Records would have to be kept very closely on other organizations. Military installations have all these security measures in place and you still hear about crimes committed on post/base. Robbery and mugging at least, as well as occasionally the greater crimes. Its a lot of work that won't gauruntee safety of attendees. Just because you are stupid doesn't mean you will get kicked out of an organization in your first three years. Its the stupid ones that don't respect themselves or those that they attack that cause these troubles. Had the men who jumped this poor lady this year been respectful and intelligent she wouldn't be a new rape victim.
            • Mukhtar: You wrote "You want to keep things safe? Lets start with eliminating all non-members that have less than three years of membership in the parent organization."

              Well I'll have you know I am not an SCA member, yet I've been coming to Pennsic for some 12 or so years. My camp, Pentwyvern, has provided not only fighting members of SCA, but fantastic parties (Hell Nite, Christmas in Pentwyvern, Men Without Pants, etc), period gates (our 26' seige tower, and don't give me BS about how it wasn't safe), many many vintnors and brewers, mercenary archers (almost the whole camp now) etc etc. We come to Pennsic to live the dream as best we can with what means we have. We come to fight, shop, show off our artisans and generally show a good time to others at our parties.

              Our parties have been commended on such high level of security, medical evacuation, and all out fun. Our Hell Nite, for example, based on the passion plays to show the difference between good and evil put on by the Christian Churches for the pagans hoping to convert them, are period.

              Our camp has provided escorts after dark for 4 years now. Our camp has also been noted as a "safe spot" for those in trouble. Azhrde, my wife, and I work our asses off all year to ensure our camp is a "happy bubble" for those in need. It's instilled on everyone of our campmates.

              Unless I get into fighting, which I doubt I ever will again, I don't plan on becoming a member of the SCA. How dare you generalize by insinuating that its the Non-SCA folk causing all the trouble. That's just rude and ludicrous. That'd be like me saying all SCA members are snobby ass kissers who can't throw a good party so they rely on non-members to entertain them. Don't assume you're any better because you're a member. Read my wife's post on "Knights, Really?" on the Vulgar Unicorn... then get a taste of your own medicine.

              • Jackal:

                I'm not interested in a pissing match with you.

                However, it is the perogative of the SCA to set such entrance requirements as it sees fit for any and all of its functions. If you want to change that, become a member and change it from the inside.

                If you want to compare stripes...I've more than twice the number of Pennsics under my belt. I live 100 yards from your camp. I know about your parties, and had to deal with the problems they caused. I'm not interested in harping on that.

                And I couldn't care less about your tower. That was a Cooper decision about liability.

                Have a nice war.
                • Mukhtar, I'm not here to piss in your fruit loops either. But don't generalize non-SCA members with such riff-raff, it's unbecoming of you.

                  From what you're saying is to be an SCA member makes you "outrank" or "grandfather in" anyone non-SCA. That only SCA members are good at heart and willing to take that extra step to do thier best at creating a period atmosphere.

                  And this proves non-SCA to be the problem? So, the SCA must have strict requirements to becoming a member like no previous felony charges or even misdemeaners, right? So, just because someone has a clean "record" and is a member of the SCA means they aren't a pedifile or rapist or thief, right? Or have they just never been caught? You might as well ban smoking and alcohol while you're at it.

                  If this is wrong then please, clarify.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    people should be aware of the problems that might occur in their everyday life. if you plan on walking across coarse stones, then wear proper foot gear.
                    …so, as the boy scouts preach: be prepared…

                    it is definitely not the fault of the people/persons who were attacked, but walk thru any park alone late at night, and you might get the same results. i thank all those that donated to the torches, and to those that came to help…

                    …but blaming or scape-goating or creating a police state is the wrong response…

                    it is more important to not let fear motivate you, and don't feed into it... doing so is a self fulfilling prophecy and you will create your own monsters… as in all things you will find what you seek…

                    isn't it better to seek out goodness and friendship? better things to find... better things to do, better role models to have, better things to become...

                    so i say: be prepared... but don't be scared. nurture and reward the good in your fellow humans... it is why we are here...

                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    (territory marked? check!)

                    Let me try to clarify by first telling you that these are my observations from 30+ Pennsics, my experience as a law enforcement officer, and keeping close tabs on the "issues" that occur at Pennsic.

                    The problems at Pennsic and other events are most offen caused by:
                    Age 17 to 23
                    not members of the SCA
                    No SCA group affiliation (i.e. Dagerhear, Pentwyvern, Tuchux)
                    and no previous pennsic attendance.

                    Repeat offenders are most often:
                    Age 17 to 23
                    not members of the SCA
                    No SCA group affiliation (i.e. Dagerhear, Pentwyvern, Tuchux)
                    and no previous pennsic attendance.

                    Are you seeing the same pattern here that I do? The common factor is the underaged kids and freeloaders that just come for the free booze and fornication (as well as the easy targets for theft. Just ask the merchants.)

                    Now, just to make it really ugly, did you know that the low end membership will get you a positive refund on your pennsic costs?

           plan that I'm proposing is that over the next six years the entry level of SCA membership be raised to a minimum of three years for entry to Pennsic. (i.e. at PW 36, you need to have been a member for a year, two for PW 38, and three or more for PW40.) This would allow you and others to get a membership.

                    I would remark that I don't think a membership in the SCA confers any special powers. I do think that, like many other organizations that I am a member of, membership should have privelleges. Heavy Combat and Pennsic are privelleges, not rights, and can be restricted or offered as the organization sees fit.

                    If that's not clear enough, I'm open to explaining it some other way.

                    Besides, I like your idea of a background check...what did you say your name was? (Just kidding!)

                    The biggest squeal that I keep hearing is, "What about the new folks?" to which my answer is "Somethings are worth waiting for." Christmas only comes once a year, unless you live in Pentwyvern!

                    Salaam, Mukhtar (durr)
                    • Unfortunately you're showing no proof positive to your claims that Pentwyvernians, Dagorhirians or Tuchux were the cause of all or most of the past problems. It's pure conjecture. In fact, it was a Porto-John cleaner who last year hopped the fence after hours and theived from Wildcat's tent. Prior "rumored" assault events were said to have been mundanes who found their way onto the grounds. Never had I heard of a problem with a Dagohir or Pentwyvern member.

                      So please, shed some light on me. Provide samples of your claims. Then, we can debate the rest of your ideas.
                      • Find a gathering of 13,000 people anywhere and a good percentage of the "problems" would likely be:
                        Age 17 to 23

                        Statistics (such as violent crime, prison inmates etc) point to young, male, alcohol as the commonalities. It seems to be the mix of young men's testosterone and alcohol may sometimes be a dangerous cocktail.

                        Throw in dressing up (where people often act with fewer inhibitions), weapons, and lots of late, dark nights and there are GOING to be problems.

                        Which can be mostly avoided by just having an escort.
                        THANK you to the camps and individuals who kindly offer this service.
                        • Samira,

                          You're welcome (regarding escort service)! Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt the sex/age of the typical "trouble maker". I'm sure dressing up allows a certain "hidden identity" making it an ideal place for illicit behaviours. I also don't doubt most trouble was from non-SCA members. It's the pre-defined "non-SCA member" portion I don't agree with. Naming Dagorhir, Pentwyvern and Tuchux is wrong. In the last 12+ years, to my knowledge, any time there has been a problem it's been non-Pennsic goers (ie. outsiders not camping at Pennsic) that have been the problem.
                          • So, lets compare notes. I've been quoting from 30+ years of continuous Pennsic service, particularly in the public safety staff sort of thing. I didn't just pull those names out of the hat, so let me add a few; Rouges, Angelsea, Concusar, Norseland. And I could add a few households to that list as well.

                            Let me get back on point here. What we need to do is keep out the ones that are not ready for war. With a few years of education and experience and an appreciation that going to Pennsic is a privellege that can be withdrawn for bad behavior...those are the ones that should be let in.

                            That's what will keep the riff-raff from destroying the place where the magic happens.
                            • Though I'm not sure whom you just referred to (ie. Rogues, Angelsea, etc), am I right in your saying they've caused such problems in the past that whole "societies" have been chastised or removed... or should have been?

                              Even if your wishes are granted, and NO ONE is allowed into Pennsic without an SCA membership, who's going to drive/operate the honey wagon? Should the Coopers put up a 10' high fence with prison razor wire at the top with lookouts every so many feet? Does a year + membership in the SCA guarantee someone isn't going to be a dick? We all know that one isn't true. As I said earlier, just read the thread "Knights, reall?" on the Vulgar Unicorn

                              Three White belted "SCA Knights" abused my camp's easy going-ness and didn't seem to mind the common rules of trespassing... not to mention just plain creeping us out and threatening a camp mate of mine.

                              When I throw a party in my camp I don't check for SCA memberships. If they're rude, obnoxious or harmful in any way to any of our guests we escort them out of camp. Occasionally we've had security escort them from there on.

                              Even if you had documented proof of said "non-SCA" camps/people causing problems, which I've yet to see produced, it certainly wasn't Dagorhir, Pentwyvern or Tuchux at the cause. I don't know of the other camps, and personally I don't care. Still, its only heresay.

                              By the way, Mukhtar, I apologize for my immediate defensive reaction to your first posting, I rather prefer this sort of debate... though I still find it highly offensive and un-documented. Your "experience" hasn't given anyone here proof to your slander of my camp.
                              • must we inform the coopers that their choice of food providers and EMT's don't meet with our new wishes?
                                swarthy appearance may also be banned... it is not really an idea that i can condone. where there is a chance for bad form, it has a chance to happen. sometimes sane people can go crazy when the conditions are right. again i say to put more energy into nurturing good people and good intentions. consider that bad things could happen and find a way to respond that does not feed the fear... be proactive, but if you let fear get control of you, it will rule your life. love one another is our creators' wish, punish one another is a sad misunderstanding of life. be kind and aware and be a good neighbor.
                      • Unsu...
                        I think you may be mis-reading Durr's comment. He says "No group affiliation (Pentwyvern, etc)", which I take to mean the troublemakers are notably NOT attached to any of the established groups mentioned. Most certainly this makes more sense to his arguement.
                    • Mukhtar,

                      Playing Devil's Advocate I have to ask how your 3 year membership rule would playout in this situation. My husband was in the SCA for several years his first Pennsic was 13. He was important in getting the barony in his home town back to full strength. Then he moved from OH to MD began a full time career, meet me, got married, had a kid. And we decided to join the SCA as a family. After a year we attended our first Pennsic. Would you have denied us entry because we had only been members for 1 year? Would you had counted his previous years membership? And allowed him, but not me? Would you made us leave our daughter home because she didn't have a membership because we saw no benefit in getting a membership for a 4 year old? Would your 3 year rule split families?

                      Oh we played Daghorhir for a few years. Would that be a strike against us? :)

                      And there would no point of having novice tourneys at Pennsic, would there. My last few Pennsic some of the nicest people in my camp have been the new people.

                      • A lot of our former Dagorhir members have gone SCA, some are both. Coming from a fighting group we quickly adapted ourselves to the SCA rules, joined up, and fought both groups at events. Some of our fighters joined Tuchux and/or SCA and are outstanding fighters and members of the SCA now. There are several households, none of which you've mentioned, that are esteemed warriors on the battlefield, who are comprised mostly of ex-Pentwyvern/Dagorhir members.

                        In essence, slandering Pentwyvern, Dagorhir and Tuchux is slandering all our off-shoot camps too. Last year's Mid Realm King was an ex-Dagorhir/Pentwyvern member. Tell me he was a trouble maker. Our kingdom/group has done more for/with the SCA than you can even begin to imagine.

                        You want proof? I can prove what I say. I'll back it up with names and camps. I've yet to see proof that we're the trouble makers as you claim... Only your suggestions.
                        • I'm going to try to answer several posts in this one, so bear with me (and the fact that I didn't immediately respond to you might be that I had to do things besides this. Thanks for pissing in the fruit loops.)

                          First, as to the polite question about "what about my situation as a returning member (etc.)", what I will say is that no system is perfect. Before anything like this would be implemented, many of those kind of issues would have to be examined. My preference is a case-by-case resolution when those kind of "falling through the cracks" situations occur.

                          Second, I did not say anywhere that all members of this or that group were troublemakers. What I did recall to you was that the highest occurence of troublemakers had certain characteristics.

                          Third, slander is verbal, libel is written. You want some cases cited, lets start with Pennsic 24 and the fact that the Tuchux for their behavior were not permitted to attend Pennsic 25. It was in all the papers.

                          One of the reasons why I did not immediate respond (besides the fact that I was away) was to go digging back into the reports of various past Pennsics for details on problems created by some of these groups, in particular Pentwyvern, since you asked. Care to air out the dirty laundry?

                          Now, to get back on point, this was not to be a finger pointing discussion, but rather proposal of a solution to the problem of transient troublemakers at Pennsic. If you don't want to participate in that topic, then just find someone else to argue with. I'm not interested.
                          • Mukhtar, thank you for your views... i can see that you care about the situation and only want to help alieviate it or prevent bad things from reoccurring. some may have felt that finger pointing is what was happening. because there are emotions envolved this situation will take some care and thought to address it properly, and not to cause strife between our good neighbors...
                            • Regarding the 3 year membership rule:

                              I went to a small event in Ered Sul, Atenveldt this past weekend. There was a young man there who is fairly new to the society. His chivalry was astounding. He represented everything a knight should be. A friend made a comment that she had noticed that a lot of times, the newbies are actually better behaved than some of us "seasoned folk" as we get comfortable.

                              I thought that was an interesting observation. Just thought I would pass it along.

                              • Rosa, I regret that the idealism of youth gives way too soon to the cynacism of experience.

                                So, how or what would you do to grant those special privelleges to this person if a 3 year requirement were in effect?
                                • Well, I may be out of line commenting at all since I have never gone to Pennsic. I attend Estrella War in Atenveldt, which is smaller than Pennsic, but still pretty big. We have the same problems here.

                                  I would be against enforcing a 3 year membership rule to get into Estrella. I would not attend the event myself, even though my membership would allow me too. If something like that were to go into effect, I would think that in this case, that persons Baron should have the right to waive it for him.

                                  There is a household here that has a requirement to camp with them. You have to be sponsered by a member of the house. I have seen the advantages of this many times. When you have that kind of responsibility on your shoulders, knowing that if this person you brought into the group screws up, you will be held partially accountable, makes you think a little bit more on who you will invite and what you are going to do or say to prepare them for War.

                                  There are a lot of solutions that haven't been attempted yet. I think we can get this under control as a community and I think we should try out some of the less drastic solutions before imposing a rule that will prevent the good people from joining us.

                                  There are a lot more intelligent, hard working and respectful people in this society than there are bad apples. Those of us who are interested in making it safer to attend events need to put our heads together and focus on solutions.

                                  The bad guys have no idea who they are messing with, but I have a feeling that they are about to find out!
                          • “One of the reasons why I did not immediate respond (besides the fact that I was away) was to go digging back into the reports of various past Pennsics for details on problems created by some of these groups, in particular Pentwyvern, since you asked. Care to air out the dirty laundry?”

                            Being that there has been a parrelle thread going on over at the tribe I moderate I have not reallly bean reading this one until today. I am stunned by the accuasations leveled at the people with which I am a new found campmate.

                            I have found the people there to be honest and true hearted. They are bonded by a sense of family and take care of each other. I am proud to be considered a Pentwyervian (and yes, I am carry a SCA card as well) and enjoy the commradery and sense of belonging these people share with me.

                            How dare you list them as trouble makers and try to outline them as ruffians and malcontents. How dare you threaten to air “dirty laundery” in a public forum, especially when they may be events from so long ago you had to DIG for them in past reports. Just who has made you judge and jury? Just by what right do you label these fine people?

                            By my reconning, you Sir are a troublemaker, looking to pick open the wounds of the past in order to make your point today. I find it akin to the racial and ethinic strife we see all over the world these days where people are killing each other over crimes commited centuries ago. While not as serious in nature, your method is still bonechilling and casts a pall over Pennsic.
                            • forgive the typos... busy day...
                              • The typos are forgiven.

                                May I ask you to reread the last paragraph in that post?

                                Then, I still refuse to argue.
                                • Unsu...
                                  I wasn't going to say anything on this thread, but now I feel I must.

                                  I think it's terribly unfair of you, Mukhtar, to blatantly point fingers of blame at a group and then, when confronted, take the route of "I'm not here to argue." In my mind that's the same as starting an argument and, when the other person states their side, going "Lalalalala I'm not listening!"

                                  Just my two akces,
                          • Mukhtar wrote: "...this was not to be a finger pointing discussion, but rather proposal of a solution to the problem of transient troublemakers at Pennsic."

                            I'm afraid, Mukhtar, you've already pointed fingers by naming the camp I'm in charge of, and the group I used to belong to (Dagorhir). The Tuchux had once incident involving another camp/member(s). That arguement was over each's interpretation of chivalry. Both paid penalties for their actions. As far as I'm concerned, I'm friends with both camps. What problems they had are done with.

                            Why don't you spend a little time and message me privately with your "antiquated findings" of Pentwyvern and Dagorhir incidents and "air the laundry" there. I'd love to hear it. This will clear up this board for the discussion. Then again I wonder what it takes for a person to be so bored at Pennsic they keep tabs on every camp's mishaps. Still, I'm interested in hearing what you think you know.
                            • This reminds me of the year Vlad's camp and the Tuchux were evicted by the Coopers due to the clubbing incident on the road. I don't like to disrespect the dead, but this I believe is relevant. That same year Duke Andrew Of Seldom Rest (now deceased) was camping with the Horde. This is the same Duke Andrew who was King of the Middle at Pennsic One and Three. Andrew had been ostracized by many in the Midrealm due to his abuse of his then wife Duchess Anne (now also deceased). Andrew was at the time living with a woman who is/was a Horde member. There was some argument in camp early on in the event between Andrew and his lady. Andrew struck the woman in front of several other Horde members. The Horde members went to the Coopers and Andrew was given the choice of leaving and never returning or of being turned over to the local authorities. So although the Tuchux got most of the bad press, a real case of abuse was caused by a long time SCA member and a knight and Duke.
                              As to Pentwyvern, I have been camping with the group since Pennsic 11 and have never known any of our members to commit any crime or misdemeanor at Pennsic. We have had incidents at our parties which may have been mis-reported, but all of those were caused by members of other groups and were at worst due to misunderstandings.
                              • Thank you Gladius. As always, you have my utmost respect and admiration.
                                • As a veteran of both Pennsic and Burning Man as well as countless other festivals and revels - not to mention that I am a very independant woman as well as a rape survivor...

                                  - Keep your wits about you
                                  - dont travel alone when it is dark no matter HOW well you know the area
                                  - if you find you are alone all of the sudden make an effort to find security (the party's hosts, etc) and be escorted

                                  There is no stupidity in being safe
                                  ~ J

                                  • Most of the groups out there hosting parties will go over and above any escoring or protection needed. Nighwolf parties at Estrella have been raging and from time to time we have been forced to remove individuals.

                                    I can think of one party camp I wouldn't put anyones hopes into protection. Won't name them, but they had a run in a few years ago with the local law inforcment. I cringe when I hear someone exsited about going to their party. Choosing what parties one attends may be important as well.
                                    • Unsu...
                                      I feel that many SCAdians have become a little more apathetic than in the past. And it hasn't been that long. I remember as little as 6 or 7 years ago that SCA events were very well maintained by not only the security but the populace as well. The SCA has in a nut-shell become similar to that of regular society in that a large portion see someone in need and walk by without a glance and attempt to avoid a situation which would require their assistance, (Similar to seeing a car on the side of the road with a mother and her children sitting helplessly, and no one stops to help)
                                      I blame the 'it's not my problem' attitude that many have developed. We have to fix this before it become habit.
                                      We are all in this together and we are a family. But just like all families sometimes they drift apart or take for granted the great things they once had.
                              • Digging through old posts, I found this gem of mis-information. Just like the other one that I wrote to Jim about, and he has not retracted.

                                Let me set the record straight.

                                Andrew of Seldomrest was King of the Middle for Pennsics I, II, and XI.

                                Andrew did strike his wife Anne, which precipitated their divorce. Anne and Andrew are deceased (may God be pleased with them), there is no doubt.

                                Now, on to mythbusting...

                                Andrew did camp with the Great Household of the Dark Horde for Pennsic XVIII with his lady, Countess Shara (not now, nor ever been a member of the Horde.) He was in that camp as an invited guest, having been banished by the King of the Middle (for unspecified reasons.)


                                The incident outside Vlads camp at Pennsic XXIV involved Vlad and a Tuchux, and had nothing to do with Andrew or the Dark Horde. The outcome from that was the exclusion of Vlad and the Tuchux from Pennsic XXV, and the denial of the Tuchux traditional camping space. This is a matter of record, but you could ask one of the Autocrats of that Pennsic about it.

                                I know these things because I kept a record of the events (I had to in some cases, because of my responsibilities,) some of which can be found the Stephan's Florigium.

                                Though your versions may make a good story, I'll stick with the record for my stories.

                          • Unsu...
                            We went to pennsic 25. I've been going since '83 and havent missed a year. Get your facts straight mate. 'our behavior' was to stop a man from beating his wife on a public road. Yah, I'd kick people out for that.
                            What a goober.
                            • Unsu...
                              Just give me one week. One week to torture a wife beater, rapist, or pedophile. They wouldn't die but they'd wish they had. Because living as a Eunich with no hands who has to eat his food through a straw for the rest of his life would be just about close to justice as far as I'm concerned.
                            • My Knight is an Ex-Tuchux. He has told all of us the story about what happened that night. The Tuchux were doing, in my book, the honorable thing. It's a shame it got turned around on them and they have to suffer for because everyone else seems to have this idea that Tuchux are some kind of criminal element in the SCA/Pennsic.
                    • This is what is wrong with our country. The minute something bad happens, the first thing people do is point fingers. "Its gotta be so and so group, I mean look at them, they are so bad they must be guilty"

                      Most recently an asian student shot alot of people at virginia tech, now all asians are looked to with suspicion.

                      Why can't people get it into their head that bad apples exist regardless of race, gender, age, group of affiliation etc. We're all not that much different from each other. The only difference is a matter of upbringing, morals you learned and sometimes just being sober.

                      We need to stop pointing fingers at groups and accusing them as a group of wrong doings.

                      The point of Chivalry is to treat everyone with respect. I judge everyone as worthy of my respect until they prove otherwise on an individual basis.
            • <<<<Lets start with eliminating all non-members that have less than three years of membership in the parent organization. >>>>

              be more specific. 3 consecutive years or 3 years total? why 3? why not 2 or 5 or 10?

              this right here would boot me out of attending pennsic. i've played with the SCA for 8 years now but have only been an offical member for the first and last year.

              though on a side note pennsic actually modivated me to GET my membership. before it was more economical to just pay the extra $3 for the 2 events i attended each year. when i went to pennsic i got the membership due to the price break for admission and got interested in fenceing and thrown weapons. since i now fence and am a TW marshall i plan on keeping the membership up.

              >>Admission to Pennsic is a privellege, not a right.

              it is? i'm sure there is some reason you wouldnt be admitted to pennsic but i dont recall seeing it posted anywhere.

              >>As such, it could be a privellege reserved to members of a certain standing, like three or more years of seniority. >>

              so.............. if i was a really screwed up individual and notice the bad publicity pennsic was getting, i would just need to plan ahead? if i was a guy who wanted to see if the ladies (children???) at pennsic were as easy pray as it appears on the net i could just get my membership, renew it for a couple years, than slide into a pair of jeans and a inside out t-shirt and go a hunting?

              << They only come to suck booze, suck face (among other things), and/or suck blood. >>

              and this differs from other big sca events how?? hell even some of the smaller events are like this (though i've never encountered the blood bit before). the first thing i was ever told about pennsic was "if you cant get laid at pennsic, you cant get laid anywhere." i've actually been at a demo meeting that the people in charge felt it nessary to tell people not to comment on the drinking and sex. while there are people who attend just for these reasons i've seen ALOT of SCA members (official and unofficial) who are into it too.

            • At Estrella War in '99 my girlfriend was raped by two knights who had been members for over 20 years. Thinking that length of membership or standing in the SCA will carry over to a person's worth in the real world is dangerous and faulty thinking.
              • I whole heartedly agree.

                There are those out there that feel that their dubis(s) entitle them to privileges that the real world frowns on. And, unfortunately, because it is more than horrid PR, many times, SCA officials will try or want to try to cover things up. Society as a whole has been doing it for centuries. It's wrong, but it's a pattern.

                7 out of 10 women will be raped sometime during their life. 1 out of 3 will have been sexually abused by a friend of the family or a family memeber as a child. I don't know the statistics for women who will suffer both, nor do I know the stats for men. I apologize.

                Keep it in mind when you hear about it. It's not something to cover up. It's something to be concerned about. It's something we all need to THINK about, prevent, council, and be there for those who will suffer that fate or who already have.

                You don't want to know what I think people who commit those crimes should have to undergo.

                My less than two rubles....
          • My camp try to keep tikis lit most of the night until we all come home. Being one of the last to get home I can attest that most of them stay lit till the sun is coming up.

            As far as the Tuchux are conserned: I am glad they look after their women and welcome them to drink with me at any time. I have delt with them on and off the field and find them honorable in their own rights.

  • Unfortunately I hear that this was true. There were a lot of news reporters on site the next day. Channel 2 interviewed me and I had only heard from them about the attack.
    It's sad that Pennsic is starting to draw negative attention from the mundane world because obviously, that's not what we're about.
    • tO jAZ:
      way too much testosterone up in this hizzy for me! let's get back to the oringinal matter at hand as Jaz did. and thank you again.
      another rape survivor
      • Instead of having a bunch of people joyriding all over Cooper's Lake in the guise of "Security", perhaps there could be set security stations. Posted volunteers that could provide information and assistance to whoever may need it. It would also give people a set place to seek help or an escort if necessary. Just a thought.
        As to the membership thing(sorry, had to respond)I have one as it does save me money in the overall. But has anyone mentioned that Pennsic is not an official SCA event. The site was originally found by non SCA persons(ie. TUCHUX). Who do you write your check to, the SCA or Dave Cooper?
      • Good Day Folks,

        Okey, I've been ghosting for awhile, and decided that today I would perhaps reply... This response is to both the original thread and the Tangent that it took. But I guess I should give alittle background about myself. I am a Newbie, I'm a "Baby Seal" on the heavies field, and I am now (But wasn't for the first 2 years) a Member of the SCA. I've only been playing since 2000, My first event was a crown event that a friend of mine invited me to, My Second event was a Potrero War, in which I was given a radio at 0400 in the morning by the Constable in charge, and asked to help find a possible Suicidal girl that ran off after having a fight with her boyfriend. Since that event, I have had a radio from the moment I step on site to the Moment I leave (Of which I am usually one of the last 2 people off site. I am also a Chirurgeon, Currently filling the office of Baronial Chirurgeon of Calafia, Kingdom of Caid. As to why they would give a radio to some fool at his second event... I'm a Navy Corpsman of over 13 years, I've worked Hotel, event and personal security as well as being an EMT since I was in My late teens. I've also worked Navy Family Advocacy, worked in 2 inner city teen centers in major cities, worked with mentally disturbed children and adults, and generally have a knack for being in the wrong place at the right time. :-) I know that isn't much compared to the experiance levels that many of you have, however understanding that, perhaps I can offer some ideas that long standing mebers might not have, Or I'll just type out My Butt and perhaps at least amuse someone ;-P On to the post:

        First the tangent :-),
        I have never been to Pennsic, I want to go, But the navy and costs have prevented me from going. However, speaking from a point of view of a lot of people in a small place. Pennsic is like the navy, it is not a majority of the people there that are the problem, and it isn't "Just the newbies" either. With that many people you are looking at a small cut out of society at large. With that many people you will have some bad apples. It happens, Any event with more then a single person will have differences of opinion, and add alcohol, this difference might come to blows. Now I would love to believe that the SCA(Both members and Non-members that come to events) and Navy are perfect groups with only the best and brightiest joining. However, working the programs I have, Man is the Meaniest most evil and unpridictable creature there is and I understand that it is irresponsible of me to close my eyes and believe that Nothing will ever go wrong. It isn't the groups, though some may need to work on policing thier own members, but just individuals that cause these incidents. I am and have always preached to the camping groups, What happens in your camp, Stays in your camp unless you call Me (Btw, I'm a Senior Constable now as well). Most camps will police thier own. and if something Very bad happens, they call on the Constables and perhaps even civilian authorities. Ok, thats My 1/2 cent on that.

        The main topic:
        I am a VERY firm believer that ALL should rove in groups at wars... for a numbr of basic reasons 1) it is safer, 2) A hell of a lot more fun to wander with friends, also you can carry more beer that way <Smile> I was told that NO lady should be allowed to wander without an escort, and I know fo a girl that took exception to this thinking the men were just being intrusive and nosey to escort her places, Her moniker became ***** the Appologetic after she was told the safety and the chivilric reasons behind it. That this happens at events is a true shame, and we should not start pointinig fingers or blaming certian groups, we should make sure that the opportunity is NEVER there for these perverts. Rapest are about the Power and the control, as was Mentioned by a smart young lady earlier, and that is true, and they are often a crime of opportunity, if Our women are never alone, there is little chance of scum getting close. and as to Our own causing the trouble, in the case of Abuse, rape or molestation done by Campers at SCA events. We police our own, We call the authorities as needed, But again, Houses should know thier members well enough to police themselves to some level as well. We should NEVER have a rape at an Event, No matter how Much alcohol flows, there are ALWAYS sober people that are around to 1) protect those that are unable (Due to drink or ANY reason) to defend themselves and 2) to drag the drunkards to thier respect racks and let them sleep it off ... and then go past thier tent in the Morning banging trash can lids togather. <Sorry, My cruel sense of humor showing>

        Wow, I'm a King of Tangents, But thank you to all that stayed awake during My ramble, please reply or counter post as you feel neccesary.

        be well and safe,
        Lord James "Doc Nitefall" Toirdhealbach mac Lawless

        Please pardon Typos and Spelling, thank you :-)

        • Huzzah to Doc. My thoughts exactly!

          My first event was AnTir/West War in 2001. Mind you, I have never been a paid SCA Member and I don't plan on being one anytime soon. It is not worth it to me to spend (what is it now?) $30 a year to save maybe $6. Most of the events that my household attends are Non-Sanctioned events therefore, there is no price break for members. I also know that there will (most likely) never be an AoA out there for Fire Performance. Though what I do as a Fire Performer is just as dangerous as what any Heavy Fighter does. How do I know? Because we have ex-Heavy Fighters in our Fire Troupe. They always say that Heavy Fighting is less dangerous. Sorry getting off the subject...

          There are bad apples in every batch. I have seen many in my time in the SCA and I am still considered a "Newbie". That being said, I have also seen many a household "take care of their own." If they find out somebody in their household is hurt, all of the household makes sure that person is okay. On the other hand, I have also seen when a person irritates or offends someone in a household, that person is banned from entering said household. My house had to do this at an event this past year. A "man" decided to get very very drunk and be crude, disgusting and crass to guests as well as members of our house. He was escorted out of our house and it was explained to him why he was not allowed to come back. Needless to say, he got very upset, and tried to come back and start fights. The CIC was (luckilly) a member of our house and in the house at the time, watching all of this taking place. We then let him and his staff take over the situation as the Constables. From what I have been told by some of the Constables as well as some of the Autocrating team, this person is banned from that event.

          All in all, People need to take responsibilities for their own actions! If you can't do this, you should not be part of any group.

          Sorry for the rambling, just wanted to put in my 2 cents.
        • hi Doc :)

          i agree with much of what you said with the exception of policing our own -- it is that very policy i feel makes it possible for perverts to stay around. i can think of more than one man in every kingdom i've lived in that women are warned to stay away from. i can name names; many are well-regarded due to their fighting prowess.

          that is what policing our own allows: for mock, ad-hoc "punishments" to be administered to these perverts by their friends, and the stories never make it to the authorities.

          bravo to the unfortunate woman who called the police at pennsic.

          we need to publish the actual crime statistics with no doctoring and call the state authorities on matters of personal safety so that everyone has an accurate view of the dangers and the consequences, and so that there is a paper trail when needed to get these guys banished.

          • Hier Hier !!! Autumn speaks with wisdom. There needs to be real consequences for those that are not worthy to be part of our society. Just being able to swing a stick is not good reason to kept around.
            • How about mead making? Not just ok mead you'd find in mass quantity given away free at a large party but the kind of stuff you'd save for special company. How about entertainers like dancers, poi, artists, brewers, vintnors, archers, glass blowers, professional costumers, and the many likes?
              • I have been thinking about this a lot. I already stated that I am for having mundane law enforcement on site. In addition, we could use more "inside" patroling.

                What if we had appointed escorts at all of the larger parties? We could have 2 or 3 escorts available to escort ladies to the privies and back to their camp. The camps that host the larger parties could provide the escorts. The ladies are safer and the generous gentles who volunteer for this get a huge perk. They get to meet lots of women.

                What do you all think about that idea?
                • I have given this some thought and don't think having mundane law enforcement on site is really necessary. My thoughts on this point are that they wouldn't have stopped this incident. Having more inside patrolling might help. At Starwood we had foot patrols of several people with radios. An unarmed night watch or even an armed night watch at Pennsic might be a good idea. But I have to stress, no golf carts. Their job would be to patrol the wooded areas and not actually escort, but rather to keep an eye on lone walkers to assure their safety. They wouldn't be needed in the heavily populated areas and could instead patrol places like the battlefield, the castle & etc.
                  Escorts are probably unnecessary in the immediate vicinity of the parties. Women in groups are also probably safe. Again, if we look at the incident in question the best way to have prevented it would have been for the victim to have travelled with a friend and to have stayed on the main roads. I think it's ironic that the one way for a woman to really be safe at Pennsic is to travel in the company of a trusted male. Notice I said trusted. Statistically you are probably better off walking alone than with some guy you meet at one of the parties.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Yes, I understand that you said "trusted" male. However, if you look at the statistics of rape, over 50% of the females that are raped are done so by "trusted" males. Me personally, the second time I was raped was by my boyfriend at the time. I know that I can just assume that everybody is not trustworthy, but at the same time, not everybody who is your friend can be trusted to not do something stupid when they are drunk, or high, or in the swing of things or any such reason. It's a matter of being around at least 2 or 3 people, when you are out and about. If you have more people with you, not only are you safer, but you tend to have more fun.
                    • In the mundane I was a photographer for the Air Force shooting surgeries, autopsy and emergency calls. With that preface I'll only mention that I started smoking because of my job and it took me 2 years after I left the Air Force and a very supportive husband to help me quit. I know what happens to women and men with those they trust. It's not all wine and roses.

                      To respond to the entrance requirement idea - I am one of the lucky who didn't start in singles camping but was welcomed into a wonderful household. The household took me in, showed me the ropes and has welcomed me back every year. Infact, I'm thinking about inviting 2 of my closest friends to join me, I'm only waiting to hear back from my camp dad. If we were to restrict entry it would greatly diminish the glow that Pennsic has that comes from the smiles of those who are seeing it for the first time. I agree that there is an unsavory element at War, and I admit that I've only been in the SCA for 2 years, and only attended 2 Wars. But I am now looking into archery, and perhaps even in a fighting capacity though I have not decided that yet.

                      There isn't a great solution to this. There isn't even a mediocre solution. The only way to really resolve this is to remeber one very important thing - if we, the readers of this board, remember that Chivalry can be revived and that Honor is all that anyone can ask from anyone else then we can enact a change. The people in question don't read the boards. If they do, it's only to laugh at what we're trying here. I joined the SCA to embrace Honor and Chivalry. Infact, that's why I wanted to go to Pennsic so much.

                      I say we spread the words of Honor and Chivalry and try to return Pennsic to the core of what it started out being - a renactment of the better parts of the Middle Ages.

                      *the relative new girl steps down from the soapbox*
                      • I have read alot about not letting non SCA members into Pennsic... I think that is truly unfair and would NOT solve the violence problem. I am a trauma nurse and deal with MANY raped women/ children every month in the real world. LImiting Pennsic to only members with 3 years would stop many people who only get 1 vacation a year or in my case with a special needs child and being a weekend worker the ONLY time I can attend an SCA event. I dont think its fair to charge me a membership fee every year for one event and it is TRULY not fair to prevent me the ONLY time I am able to play. I myself HAVE been a victim before so speak from personal knowlege. NO ONE shold walk alone at night. period. personal security is that PERSONAL. having escorts and ASKING for them is the only way to stop further events like the one that started this thread. The scadian dream should remain open to ALL who wish to play regardless of how many years of membership paid.
                        • I'm with Deidre on this...
                          SO many people I've met at War have told me that it was their 1st ever event, and that was what got them to stick around and finally join the SCA.
                          If they had had to be members in the 1st place, they never would have gone, found out how much fun it is, and them "become one" of us...

                          And Roas Maria.
                          All I can say to your old comment form 'way beck when is: "why don't you just stay home and lock your doors and pull the shades then?"

                          Mundane authorities, - Bah! - how about background checks for every MALE allowed on site while we're at it? Hmm..? Would THAT appease your worry-bone m'lass?

                          • Man, - can't even type when I'm that convolutedly mentally wrenched by something so inane being derdged up from the depths - AGAIN...

                            • Well this has actually been on my mind recently again as I prepare to go to war. I think it is good that is has been posted on recently that way people read that it happened, and can take any precautions that they feel are needed. The perpetrators were probably not paying a site fee and participating. It's not like the site is not accesible from the outside. People, women and men, (because both are subject to rape) should be careful and walk in pairs at Pennsic. It's just a good idea so that this won't happen again.
                              • Yes, remembering the past is important, lest it happen again. This is a recreation society after all.

                                But there is also something to putting unpleasantness from your mind and focusing everything on a positive event. Positive thoughts hold more weight! Use 'em!
                          • Dont worry Cowboy I dont think that there will ever be a background check on EVERY male to come to pennsic... and besides what about the women predators?? (yes there are some) the world is changing... I remember getting on my bike as a child and riding for miles at dusk with out any fear and now its not safe to even let my child outof my sight. we are responsible for our own satey and that of our friends and family be it blood or scadian. as I said before saftey is a PERSONAL issue and no one should prevent any one from entering pennsic because they they are afraid of getting hurt... If that was the case forget dating and going to bars :) oh and Cowboy so long as we can read your posts spelling doesnt matter :) (from one bad speller to another)
                            • Although I'm am sad and a bit incredulous that this piece of unsavory Pennsic history has been brought to the fore again, as it is almost 2yrs old, I do understand why some people (especially women) have concerns over personal safety at such a large event.

                              While I do admit to a certain 'type' of fatalism when it comes to my own safety (I was raised as a cop's kid; my father used to be an investigative reporter, knows all of the local officers in the county I grew up in, currently works for the State Police, and knows every 'statie', and I grew up calling the former Governor Dean "Uncle Howie". Anyone messes with me they better make sure I'm dead and truly disposed of and untraceable, because otherwise they are in for a world of hurt - me and mine know how to use the Law to our fullest advantage, and you better believe that we do!), being that I live with intermittent insomnia (especially when in new places) I often found myself walking around the swamp area of Pennsic last year, all alone and enjoying the soothing music of the drums and the hushed talk around dying campfires. Several times on these late night excursions, I was approached by small groups of gentlemen - in twos or threes - asking if I was in need of assisstance or an escort for my stroll. Apparently, in direct response to the tragic incident discussed above, many of the camps down in the lake area of Pennsic decided to enact a voluntary 'watch' of sorts, to keep an eye on their general area and be readily available should the need arise.

                              Though I haven't seen any talk of repeating this type of area guarding in any of the forums I'm involved in online, for this year, I'm willing to bet they'll be there just the same. And it is comforting to know that there are people ready to respond should a voice be raised in fear and panic in the middle of night, regardless of the situation. (It is also comforting to carry a small and very sharp dagger ready to hand when walking alone late at night ;) )
                              • I am new to the society. While at Gulf War I was up late my first night at war and realized I was the only lady left in the tavern. When I stood to take my leave I was very chivalrously offered an escort back to camp. The knight who offered, offered me one of his trusted squires. I was then offered by a man within the same company of said knight. I accepted the offer of the stranger, thinking he was of like ilk to be socializing with a man I respected due to his kindness and his ladies kindness to me. Unfortunately it came to my attention too late that he was just someone who was lurking and unknown to my friends. Since he called me by name my friends assumed he knew me, and I assumed he knew them and was safe. I was very badly leched on and propositioned by the man. The man was summarily dismissed from my presence as soon as I reached a safe place and has never been seen again by me or my friends.

                                I tell this story as a word of caution. Ladies, or Gentlemen, do not make the mistake I did and assume as I did. Stay in pairs, preferably with a trusted KNOWN Gentlemen escort.

                                It is unfortunate that we live in a society that indeed has these kinds of acts take place. Because we play in a Dream where we all believe in chivalry and honor it does not preclude that these people that would take advantage of a situation are not also drawn to the very Dream we aspire to recreate, even if only for a time. Be cautious, be aware, and be safe.

                                Always in Service to Our Dream.

                                Alianorra MacAiodh
                                • Perhaps we should rename this thread "Having a Safe Event" and talk about proper precautions to take when at an event. Not only issues involving food, water, heat, sun, but also personal safety, safety for children, etc, etc. Might increase people's awareness.
                                  • Sounds like a great idea, Minion. Good thinking!
                                    • Does anyone know the facts relating to this incident? Over the past two years I have heard several rumors in this regard which I have been unable to confirm. Was anyone caught? Was anyone charged? Was anyone convicted? Did the alleged attack actually occur? One rumor I have heard repeated was that one of the attackers was the victim's ex-boyfriend. Further speculation is fine, but after two years we ought to have hard facts.
                                      • Yes this happened. It occured down on Old Tuchux hill were it is very dark and wooded heading down the hill. That is why you there are tiki torches planted by the camps as a service along the road going down the hill.

                                        I am not sure if anyone was caught. I do know that the woman was back on site after the incident.
                                        Personally I am not shocked that something would happen like this. With the amounts of alcohol and over 10,000 people. I think we should still be concerned but proud, that things like this happen less frequently at Pennsic then other events with large crowds.
                                        • Actually I beleive there was some discussion of this incident in one of the bellydance related threads here in this tribe and in which a woman who was a direct friend of the victim stated quite clearly that it did occur and that the person was arrested.

                                          If I recall correctly of course, and I also believe the person was someone who worked for the portajohn company.

                                          You know, if anyone doubts such things occur, it is not that expensive or time consuming to call the state police barracks in New Castle and ask them about a give case existing or not or the track record of certain types of occurances. You might find it a very eye opening conversation.

                                          I want to remind people that this is not the first time such things have happened. Assaults, car theft, and large scale thefts from camps have been going on at Pennsic for over 10 years but in the past they were handled much more quietly, often without involving civilian authorities.
                                          • James,
                                            Thank you for the clarification. I wish when these things happen at Pennsic that the Coopers or the papers would provide all the facts. This would go a long way to calm people's fears, allow people to take appropriate precautions, and prevent any innocent people from being hurt.
                                            • Jim,

                                              You are quite welcome. Some times a good memory comes in handy. :-)

                                              I agree with you completely. Such things need to be disclosed fully so that people can be aware of the hazards and take adequate precautions. It is very easy to be lulled into a false sense of security at large events when you meet so many nice people that have so much in common that you end up forgetting about the ones who are just frauds and weasels waiting for an opportunity to exploit someone.

                                              We had a very bad camp robbery a few years back on land grab day, when you would expect only the most dedicated people and long term members to be around, and it was done with amazing speed and precision in a very short amount of time.

                                              I think it would also help to put the vermin more on notice that they would be handled with appropriate force and severity if the facts were made known more often as well as the results of the prosecution.

                                              I also agree with what others said about security being in carts. I think it was much better when there were two and three person security patrols on foot, it was harder to tell security was coming and cover up what you were doing. I also think it made security a more rewarding job because you got to meet people and still be part of the even without having to be in a darn cart.

                                              Besides, I know I can certainly use the extra walking around. :-)
                                              • James,
                                                There is also the other side of the coin of which many people are not aware. There is the over-reaction which can hurt innocent people. You are from Ohio and you may remember the Kassars, a group out of the Toledo and Bowling Green area who were active in the early 90s. They camped behind us at Pennsic off the Roman Road. One year the leader of the Kassars (who shall remain unnamed) grabbed and groped a woman at a party the first week. She fought him off, but didn't report it to the Coopers or the authorities. Instead she basically recounted the story to everyone she met and the entire Kassar group was pretty much shunned after that. We still welcomed several of them in our camp, but Mister Kassar himself was not made to feel wanted. He already had a reputation with a few of our ladies before this incident occurred. In any case, one of our former members by the name of Durdell arrived after the fact and began setting up his tent next to the Kassars camp. He was one of those Tuchux wanna be types who wore mostly loin cloths. As he was bending over pounding in a tent stake a rather large excitable type woman stepped up behind him and dug her nails into his shoulders and scratched him all the way down his back. Durdell spun around and away to face the woman and she said something along the lines of "Tell Mister Kassar that this is only a warning". Durdell who was in a great deal of pain at that point just asked "Who the hell is Mister Kassar?" The woman looked shocked and turned and ran. Durdell was bleeding and needed to be bandaged up by his camp mates. He never did find the woman who attacked him.
                                                • Wow, deja vu hits home with a double haymaker. I was not from Ohio at the time, but I do remember them.

                                                  I couldn't agree more. Actually I have seen many problems with House Kassar firsthand. I had several confrontations with Bison over his behavior towards women, although in one case the women in question also turned out to be manipulative psychotic drama queens and making things worse. Said women also caused a lot of problems with quite a few other people both at Pennsic and at several conventions.

                                                  Pleasant side note though, the great Khan actually invited me into his camp and shared "duck juice" with me at one of my earliest pennsics because of how I resolved a situation that Bison tried to precipitate at the front gate of his camp one evening over a woman.

                                                  Kassar was also involved in at least three instances in one year alone that I know of where live steel was drawn and threatened to be used and in each case the autocrats talked people out of filing charges with the police. The target of their agression dropped out of SCA activities all together after that Pennsic.

                                                  Mr. Kassar I know on sight far too well. Also his claims of being a federal marshall as well as his other lines of BS. Tolerance of him was one of the early signs of what a waste of time some other households were as well.

                                                  This also points out two interesting side issues, that the Chux often get blamed for stuff they didn't do because someone just dressed like them, and that on quite a few occasions they or the members of the Horde have acted far more courteously and chivalrously than those with western european personaes did. This reminds of a story about how I met Duchess Anne, but that's for another time.

                                                  You know, we have to have bumped elbows at a few places since we camped so close together and I spent so much time at Pentwyvern for a while. You probably remember House Seven Spears (7 beers) as well.
                                                  • James said: Actually I have seen many problems with House Kassar firsthand. -and- I was not from Ohio at the time, but I do remember them.

                                                    I am (for now) from Ohio, and I remember the Kassars first hand. The main problem I see is that, in the SCA many people take their personas far too seriously. (and when I say far too seriously, what I mean is that some people see any form of role playing as an opportunity to act in an otherwise socially unacceptable manner) The problem is that, along with "sheep shaggin' Scotsman," and "noble knight among scum," we have the "rude and self righteous barbarian." The majority of personas, even when taken to extremes, are mostly non-disruptive. The fantasy-barbarian persona, however, can sometimes push the limits when compared to modern social norms

                                                    James said of "Mr. Kassar": Tolerance of him was one of the early signs of what a waste of time some other households were as well.

                                                    One of my Pentwyvern campmates, a friend of mine, went on to join the Kassars. I suppose I rate as a "waste of time" as well then.

                                                    James said: This also points out two interesting side issues, that the Chux often get blamed for stuff they didn't do because someone just dressed like them,

                                                    I will relate two stories: One about members of Tuchux, the other about members of Kassars.

                                                    I was at a local SCA meeting. Afterward, many of us went out for pizza. At one point, I went to the restroom, and a leech swiftly moved in on my girlfriend, hoping to continue hitting on her without my interference. Having noticed what was happening, a clan member whom I somewhat knew, scooped up my seat to block the "too suave to take a hint" guy. When I returned, the clan member got up and offered my seat as if nothing had happened. It was clear to me (and my thankful girlfriend) that he had graciously "saved my spot" with a woman I was pursuing. Though a few remarks were made about his swift approach and exit, his casual manner made his motives clear.

                                                    I was at Pennsic and, after a dispute between camps, some clan members egged members of my camp. I am very allergic to raw egg, and didn't want to cause drama, (raw egg will swell my eyes closed for quite a while) and didn't know what to do. (I was too embarrassed to explain this to my campmates, as I didn't want to look like a pansy attention whore) Fortunately, the decision was made easier when word came that some clan members were threatening our ladies, saying that they'd best not even head to a nearby porta-john alone. I left Pennsic early, not wanting to deal with the whole thing. It was very disappointing.

                                                    So, have you guessed it by now? I'll give you a hint: One of the people in these two stories was "Mr. Kassar."
                                      • It IS frustrating not knowing whether this is truth or rumour and I don't think we'll ever really, 100% know. The only one's that do know are the ones involved in the incident. But I think we need to treat this as a fact and not fiction and take proper precautions because if it's a rumour I don't want it turned into a reality, and if it's reality...I don't want it repeated. For two weeks we're a city with all the associated problems...including crime. The precautions don't have to be a chore though. Wandering around at night in the company of trusted friends, engaging in lively conversation. That can be a Pennsic memory too.
                                      • "Does anyone know the facts relating to this incident? Over the past two years I have heard several rumors in this regard which I have been unable to confirm. Was anyone caught? Was anyone charged? Was anyone convicted? Did the alleged attack actually occur? One rumor I have heard repeated was that one of the attackers was the victim's ex-boyfriend. Further speculation is fine, but after two years we ought to have hard facts. "


                                        If you mean the rape by 2 men, the fact (as I have been told by the victim’s campmates) was that the rapers were an ex-boyfriend and his buddy. It was not random, but a calculated, grudge attack. Both where paying attendees at Pennsic. It occurred in the swamp. No details of the legal fall out as of yet.

                                        The incident that James is talking about is the break in of Wildcat’s tent in the Valley of the Dogs. The guy was caught; he was the son of the Porta-castle company owner. He got jail time for breaking his parole. There was NO rape. When discovered the thief was chased down by Tuchux dogs and held until the police arrived. When they got there, the thief said, “THEY HIT ME WITH STICKS!” The police replied, “What’d you expect?”
                                        • I would like to interject what I consider to be a safety tip here. Another posted stated that she accepted an escort she didn't know. The man offered to escort her, and turned out to have questionable motives.

                                          Ladies, if you must resort to an escort who is unknown to you, then YOU do the choosing. You single out a man and ask him to escort you. The reason being you are far, far less likely to randomly choose a predator. Your intuition, while not 100 percent foolproof, will markedly increase your own chance for safety. In other words, you are likely to choose well.

                                          On the other hand, if a man offers, the odds of him having questionable motives is higher than your odds of randomly choosing a predator. Guys, I apologize to those of you with noble motives. I feel like you are in the majority, and no, it's not fair to be questioned just because you tried to do the right thing. However, please try to understand where I am coming from here.

                                          I dont' feel as though you should accept if a man offers. And you absolutely should NOT accept if he insists. If you say no, and he insists, and you relent, you've just communicated to a potential predator that your "no" is negotable. And you will be alone with him.

                                          Never assume that a guy is okay because he's hanging out with people you know. Heck, don't even assume your friends know him. Don't assume anything. Go with your intuition. People often ignore their intuition, and it's just about the worse thing you can possibly do. Your intuition is your survival instinct. To ignore it is, in some cases, literally suicide. It's the most important weapon in your arsenal...and it's more important than manners, rules, people's potential hurt feelings, and just about anything else.
                                        • >The incident that James is talking about is the break in of Wildcat’s tent in the Valley of the Dogs. The guy was caught; he was the son of the Porta-castle company owner. He got jail time for breaking his parole. There was NO rape. When discovered the thief was chased down by

                                          No, that is NOT what I am talking about. Go to the very start of this thread and read the post by Samira. I am very inclined to believe what she says is absolutely true because I know her better than most I see posting here and I also know of her through some mutual real world friends and I would trust her observation on this matter far sooner that I would trust those who have an agenda to cover up the truth.

                                  • How about if we just remember a couple of simple rules

                                    1. The Golden Rule. Short, sweet, and simple.

                                    2. There's idiots in every crowd. SCA, non-SCA, (never met a Tuchux IRL, so won't comment on that!) whatever. If you get 12,000 people in one place, some of them are going to be unsavory.
                                    • Nothing wrong with Tuchux - they're an honorable group, who value their honor and their women and children. Idiots are everywhere... to specifically mention one group in the comment was uncalled for.

                                      • Unsu...
                                        Blanca, there are many, many, MANY people who would not agree on that point.
                                        • Unsu...
                                          I got another one to add to Cowboy's list:

                                          Nylon tents are neither soundproof nor do they have solid walls.

                                          When you decide to have a little intimate tete a tete, we can hear the screams, heavy breathing and ecstatic moans. Unless you got a church service going on in there, I don't think I want to hear you screaming "OH GOD!!" at the top of your lungs.

                                          On that same thought... a Coleman lantern and a see-through nylon tent wall are your worst enemies... unless you are intentionally putting on a Balinese Shadow Puppet Show for your neighbours or the people walking along the road. More than anyone, I feel sorry for the other people in your camp who are trying to sleep.

                                          Get some, enjoy some, don't be a pest to others.
                                        • When I started going to pennsic 7 years ago people felt the need to warn me about the Tuchux and how bad they are. I have since met and fought with Animal and "sons" at the Lochmere practice when he lived down here. I fought Beast in the Tuchux bear pit tourney and talked with him after that. I have yet to meet one that did not show me the same respect I showed them. They play their game the way they want to play it. They are honest about their position on things and they will back up their rules and beliefs. And they take their shots unlike a lot of "honorable" SCAdians. I would call those honorable actions. Just like in the rest of the world. In the SCA there are different moral codes and beliefs and noone has the right to judge them based on your own beliefs of how they should behave.

                                          Besides the fight that got their camp moved I have not really heard anything bad about them.

                                          I am sorry to hear that people are willing to pass judgement on a group without knowing the individuals or judge the group based on what was percieved as a misdeed by an individual.
                                      • Nothing wrong with Tuchux - they're an honorable group, who value their honor and their women and children. Idiots are everywhere... to specifically mention one group in the comment was uncalled for. >>

                                        I certainly did not mean to imply anything in my post--indeed, I mentioned non-SCA, SCA, AND Tuchux, who appear to be neither mundanes nor SCA. Unless they are also non-human, I will assume that they have the normal proportions of non-idiots and idiots..
          • Oh, I'm all for the woman calling the [mundane] authorities and bravo to her for what will surely be another ordeal.

            I just think that by the time the police got there, the prisoners should have been able to fit into very small shopping bags. Paper or plastic, you decide.

            And kudos to the poster (a fair few messages back) who laments the "apathising" of the SCA - OK, in this case maybe there wasn't anybody around, but in general, it's up to all of us to police ourselves and maintain community standards. And I should hope that it's not a community standard for anybody (male or female) to be afraid of the dark.

            I think we should all remember that just because we're not getting behind the wheel of a 2-ton piece of metal that can achieve high speeds, doesn't mean people can't get hurt if we drink too much. Even if there were no rapists ever again at Pennsic, the presence of very dark, largely unpaved roads, with the obstacle course of ditches, gulleys, guylines, can put pedestrians at risk. Don't laugh, but consider with any party amoeba having a mostly sober "designated walker" to make sure the rest of you get home.

            Finally, I'm all for house policies of escorting people, but when I start hearing things like "we don't allow our women to walk alone at night" I get scared. That kind of thinking doesn't solve the overall problem as much as it risks creating another (namely, blaming women who do walk in the dark). I hope that's not what's being thought or intended by the households that are posting this rule, but I had to speak up on that point.
            • "Finally, I'm all for house policies of escorting people, but when I start hearing things like "we don't allow our women to walk alone at night" I get scared. That kind of thinking doesn't solve the overall problem as much as it risks creating another (namely, blaming women who do walk in the dark). I hope that's not what's being thought or intended by the households that are posting this rule, but I had to speak up on that point."

              Especially on the web, it is hard to catch true meanings and I know I am probably not understanding the one you are trying to make. Please take my response as not being argumentative or critical since it is not intended to be and this is a tough topic with lots of subtleties...

              Short of some DNA test that weeds out the pervs from society and locks them away permanently, there is no solution for the overall problem. And so what remains available is for each of us to take care of the problem... one situation at a time... each time we have an opportunity... Escorting females back to their camps, whether encouraged or insisted upon, accomplishes this...

              The Tuchux, whether you love or hate them, will never have to deal with the trauma of one of their ladies being molested in any manner because they ALWAYS have a dog present any time a lady leaves their camp. I guess I am not sure why that would scare anyone other than maybe a lady that wants the freedom to roam about without supervision.

              As to blaming the ladies if something happens... only to the extent that you would blame a mugging victim for walking alone down a dark alley on the bad side of town... If someone respectable offers to escort you, just say yes. A dark road, whether at War or in mundania, is not the place to prove your independence. All it does is give some sicko an opportunity to do something to you...

              Hope I haven't tread on your toes but there is safety in numbers. Use them to your advantage every chance you get! Stay safe!
              • I certainly wasn't accusing any one group, but in general, I'm a bit disturbed by the preponderence of "must have a man accompany her" type phrases, and not enough of the more neutral "an escort", let alone with more specific qualifiers, like "a big, strong man" or "our trio of really angry, gym-obsessed grrls" or "our martial arts-trained /person of either gender]".

                For instance, the weediest 9st-soaking-wet lad who happens to be 18 qualifies as a man, but probably couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. But, hey, he's male and therefore his presence on my walk legitimises what I'm doing? *That's* the impression I hope I'm not getting.

                But even if I'm reading that wrong, I don't even like the "must have an escort" thing much if it's "a rule". Let's take the concept to its logical extreme (I don't actually need answers - these are just food-for-though examples):

                A woman wants to have a wander. No make is around to escort her. Does the rule state she can't go?

                A woman wants to have a wander and refuses to be escorted, for whatever reasons she has. Does the rule not allow her to go?

                For whatever reason (simple unavailability, refusal, anything else) woman is out by herself and the worst happens. Does she get blamed because she was wandering around by herself and/or for breaking the "must have an escort" rule?

                In history, and in some present-day (will not call them modern) cultures, whether or not punishment was meted out for a woman being besmirched (not just rape, but, for instance, a king taking mistresses) all too often hinges on whether she has a strong family and community - effectively, her own feelings and rights to her own body don't count, but if you get a couple of male relatives shaking their fists, then things get done. This diminishes the woman victim's value, of course, but other knock-on effects are to diminish the value of the unaffliated women in specific, and womenkind in general.

                And if you have rules about your own women needing protecting, it might keep them from getting raped which is, yes, a good thing, of course. But it can also lead to complacency and apathy for anybody else: "well *we're* sorted out - don't have time to care about the others".

                Yes, things aren't great in general, but no group-specific rule is going to replace overall societal vigilence and community. We are *all* responsible for every person - male or female - who walks at night.
                • Okay, having read all that I have just 1 question:
                  What does 9st adjust to in lbs? Us Yanks have trouble whith the imperial system of weights and measurements. I am still trying to figure out how my foot went from 10.5 to 43 when I crossed the ocean. :-)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    1 stone = 14 pounds
                    • So, that puts this 9st guy at 126lbs and in the USA we have the standard 98lb weakling. That give this Brit pigeon chest guy who could not fight his way out of a wet paperbag a weight advantage...... I am not sure I like where this is going.

                      I think our 98lb weakling can take him because of desire....... grrrrrr

                      ;-) (now that's funny, no matter who you are)

                      *this is all just me joking around. no political statement or putdown of anyone was intended so please no hate mail or threats*
                • Marina,

                  "For whatever reason (simple unavailability, refusal, anything else) woman is out by herself and the worst happens. Does she get blamed because she was wandering around by herself and/or for breaking the "must have an escort" rule? "

                  My answer would be a simple "yes". She put herself in a bad situation. Does it lessen the guilt of the attacker. "Hell no" and he should still be slowly boiled in oil. Common sense says that no one, but especially females, should wander alone in the dark at War or anywhere else for that matter. Personal choices have consequences. Smart choices will generally lessen the danger to the person. Unwise choices will increase the danger. If I choose to make unwise choices instead of smart choices, whatever the issue, isn't it my fault (at least in part) if there are negative consequences as a result? If I choose to do crack and die of an overdose, am I not at least partially to blame? If I choose to have unprotected sex and contract an STD or get my partner pregnant, isn't it at least partially my fault? I don't see the "stay in groups/have an escort" issue as any different than drugs or safe sex. And I see the refusal to accept that advice as being an unwise decision with possible consequences. It seems to me that we are just applying common sense here so I am struggling with why it is such an issue for you.....

                  "And if you have rules about your own women needing protecting, it might keep them from getting raped which is, yes, a good thing, of course. But it can also lead to complacency and apathy for anybody else: "well *we're* sorted out - don't have time to care about the others". "

                  I cannot be in every dark alley, every night to make sure no crime is ever committed. Even if every person that cared tried to cover every alley, every night there would still be opportunities for crimes to occur. And the burden placed upon everyone that tried to help would be incredible, especially considering that a little bit of smart behavior, in this case staying out of dark alleys at nights, could eliminate most of the risk.

                  But in general, all any of us can do is to take steps to protect those around us when we have opportunites. I escort my female friends back to their camps after parties. What else can I do? Would you propose that we establish a system at War where every camp assigns people to sit out on the road in front of their camp all night (because people can still wander at 4 AM) to negate/lessen the need for an escort. It seems like an awfully high price to pay for all of us just so the few females that insist on independence can roam freely.

                  I guess I'd like to hear what sort of alternatives you'd suggest to prevent attacks from taking place at War... I just see the "have an escort" solution as being simple and not having to police the entire campground continuously during the event...

                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    I've got yer alternative right here. Make *everybody* have a buddy. That means the men. Every man must have an escort approved by his friends, and never wander at dark alone.

                    Want to be first?

                    I didn't think so.

                    Women are not brainless uber-victim sub-adults. If they want an escort, fine, if they don't, they're not "asking for it", any more than they are "asking for it" by being single, being married, being young, being old, being drunk, being sober, being a nun, or being scantily dressed.

                    I can't imagine going on vacation knowing that I'd have my freedom restricted in such a manner. And I really resent the scare-mongering of crying "Rapists! Rapists in the dark!" in regards to said vacation. Bad People (TM) are everywhere. Good People (TM) outnumber them. If women you know would prefer to have escorts so they'll have a better time in general, no problem. But assuming that every female wandering about at night wants and needs a male to protect her is an attitude that would best be adjusted on the battlefield, facing a few of the female fighters I've observed.
                    • Dang, that sounded combative. And I'm not even a fighter (too old, too tired, or I'd try, though). Anyway, I thought about this, and I don't want to sound like I think it's dumb to go about in pairs or more - that's 3/4 of the fun of Pennsic, going about with friends, joining amoebas, making new friends. And it's romantic to have chivalrous gentlemen available for emergencies. All I was reacting to was the concept that lone women are natural targets at night and must be protected for their own good.

                      I'd like to think that if a friend offered to walk with me it would be because they liked my company, not because they thought I was too feeble to take care of myself. (wouldn't you?)
                      • I think everyone is forgetting an important fact. If Darter's version of the story is to be believed, as opposed to the one ralated by James, then the target of the rape was not a random victim, but the rapist's former girlfriend. This was a revenge attack and could just as easily have been an assault of another kind such as a felonious assault or a murder. My point is, many other women likely walked alone right past those two guys that night without being bothered. So if anyone needs an escort it is a person with known or suspected enemies on site. Years ago I used to work security at Starwood. We occasionally had situations where one attendee would have a restraining order against another. When they were made aware of these situations, Frank Barney, the camp owner, and Jeff, the organizer, would generally refund the money of the person named in the order and ask him to leave. Since Frank was on the town council, getting help from the local sheriff was never a problem. Starwood was a much smaller event than Pennsic. A few years ago a woman I knew had a restraining order against her former clan chief boyfriend. She came to Pennsic, but avoided the areas where he camped and the places he frequented. She also went out mostly at night with friends and wearing a hooded cloak. So she took a risk in attending Pennsic, but she was very careful about it. She left though after the first week since being that close to the guy gave her the creeps.
                        • I don't think it necessarily the case that Darters story is opposed to what I recounted from the beginning of this thread, I think it is a distinctly different incident as the stories I have heard that come close to each version appear to have been on different years in areas fairly far from each other.

                          In any case, no one is absolutely safe at any large event, as much or more so than in regular society because you are also in a setting where people can easily disguise themselves and there are many more hiding and ambush locations.

                          Size, strength and combat skill of the intended victim has little bearing because they can always out number you.

                          Numbers on the defense side has a further benefit, a witness. It also makes more noise the more people are involved and is more likely to draw the attention of others nearby.
                          • James,
                            I have to agree with you on this one. When I heard about the rape under discussion the thing that really shocked me was not that it had happened, but that the woman was attacked by two men.
                            • Mugging and rape are a fact of American life in cities and anywhere with dark alleys and indifferent residents, and a definite consideration for campgrounds across the nation as well. But Pennsic isn't a place with "indifferent residents" - it's got a very high concentration of the hero-types (male and female) that stop to help at car wrecks, pick up trash and stray animals, and assist wildlife across the road. I can't imagine any block of Pennsic not noticing and helping someone crying, screaming or bleeding. NO ONE, male or female, would turn and walk the other way if there were sounds of a struggle or even mysterious thumps along a dark road. Along the same line of thinking, a group of thugs that want to attack women or bypassers, while very period in nature, is not likely to make it past the first party amoeba that notices them hanging around the darkened area. We're a helpful, helping, caring bunch in general and thieves, thugs and marauders get caught, even when they have a planned victim in mind (which can't be helped, except to help - domestic violence is also quite medieval, but it's the modern world that brings it in to us).

                              So anyway. . .I'm not afraid of being attacked at Pennsic. Thieves do concern me, since we all trust that if we leave our tents and pavilions that they'll be safe while we're out wandering, day or night, and Pennsic is a thief's paradise now that it's so heavily populated. Seems only logical that we'd attract them (as logical as it is *illogical* that Pennsic would be a good place for strangers to attack women). Nothing to do about that but be careful and not leave valuables strewn around carelessly (which I am guilty of, mea culpa, but no more).
                              • Thank you, Harp! Everything you said, x2. I came back from long weekend to see that somebody had picked up the baton* and I couldn't have said it better.

                                * I'll want it back for a while, btw, so I can load it up with spikes and broken glass: if anybody reckons I deserve raping, perhaps said device applied liberally to their genitals will change their attitude.

                                BTW, no, I don't intend to walk around alone if I have a choice - as noted on this list, it's fun to have a party amoeba of any size. Whatever Your Gender!

                                But that was never my point. My point, which - through accident or design - Pewter has missed on several occasions now, is that we *all* must police ourselves. Nobody's a citizen in this war.

                                In fact, Pewter's farcical suggestion that we post patrols everywhere is the perfect product of bad thinking that's been happening more and more (yes, across the world): delegate everything so you can forget about it: somebody else's problem.

                                There was a time when entire villages would set the standards and maintain them - community witch-burning, if you will. Now we pay heavy taxes for layers of bureaucracy (specifically the police) to do it. For all sorts of reasons this is vaguely understandable in lawsuit ridden countries (and, yes, the UK is becoming a bit like that, too), but should not be the way our society of service is based, or if it is, I don't ever want to hear it.

                                To try to insist that women alone need protecting, or that women who don't play into the culture of fear deserve what they get, or that society - especially OUR society - can't look out for itself and each other to the point where risks are minimal, well that's just going the way of the Dark Side. And that's what you're still doing, Pewter. You've ignored the concept that we're all responsible, and that attitudes like yours make rape more - rather than less - likely.

                                No, Pewter, I don't want you policing the whole area. In fact, given your entrenched sexist, complacent, apathetic attitude, I don't want you anywhere near me at War.

                                And here was Harp apologising for sounding combatitive. Don't, Harp - for evil to thrive, all that is needed for Good People to do nothing.
                            • Yes, it is contrary to the generally accepted belief that the more people there are the less likely that any one of them will do something like that.

                              In a similar story, a friend of mine who lives in a suburb north of Pittsburgh told me about being assaulted in a lesser form by two "men" she had known all her life. All three have been involved in the SCA at various times, in fact I met them all at Pennsic on the store steps.

                              The woman and two men were walking back from a show at night when the men pushed the woman into an opening between two buildings and told her they were "going to break her of her prudish streak". They grabbed her by the neck and told her if she didn't masturbate them both that they would kill her.

                              No charges were pressed in this case but the woman is now pretty dubious about men in general and understandably so considering the circumstances.

                              This brings up the other issue relating to it all, that you can meet people at events who seem just fine the entire time, but after the event the way they act and who they are will often change completely. There have been countless friendships and romances that start at large events only to crash and burn badly when the reality of their true personality comes out after the event.
                    • I am not a fighter in the SCA but I am an archer. I was trained as a combat photographer at a DoD base- aka Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines all together at the level of the highest service - that means Marines. I am no light weight and certainly don't Need a man to escort me but you know what? It's not that bad to have someone along to talk to whist you walk.

                      Ladies - defend yourselves.

                      Gentlemen - defend yourselves, and the Lady you might be escorting.

                      most of all?

                      HAVE FUN!!!! This is a vacation! You're out here to have a relaxing time! If you spend the whole time worried that someone is going to jump out from behind a tree and mug/rape you the only thing you'll get out of Pennsic is a sunburn and a headache.
                      • I live in a Major Metropolitan Area and, yes, I walk around alone both during the day and at night. In fact, there have been times when *I* have walked others home or to their cars before journeying home solo. I am cautious but not paranoid. Do I think that there are no bad people in the city? Please. As I said, I am cautious, not scared.

                        When I am at Pennsic, I generally prefer to walk in company (it's more fun for me) but on the rare occasion when I get separated from my group and I have to walk alone, I observe the same rules as if I was walking home in Mundania. I guess I should probably feel safer at Pennsic, but my Rules of Caution are so deeply ingrained in me that it automatically becomes my default mode. That having been said, I rarely feel like I *need* an escort at Pennsic.

                        What I would appreciate (and have agitated for before) would be an indicator of a "Safe" camp, that is, if I was walking home and my instincts start twinging, I would like to have a place that I could hail so as to stand by the fire, maybe recruit an escort if I felt I needed one. I already know of a number of households where I would feel totally comfortable hailing camp and making those requests. There are parts of Pennsic where I do not know the households that well and, while I'm reasonably sure that I'd be safe, I might feel a little uncomfortable approaching.

                        I have said before that households with an escort available (for men or women or children or drunks or whomever) should put an orange flag or a yellow sunflower or some agreed-upon sign that people would be welcome within to find help. This way, someone could simply stop in and make polite conversation for a while until the situation passes or a suitable escort can be found. This also places some responsibility on the household to make sure that the escort provided is one who will not dishonor the household and should provide an element of security for the escortee -- almost like a warrantee for the escort.

                        Yes, there is safety in numbers but I'm not going to say that people should/not be escorted. Some people like to wander. Some people like to find amoebas. Sadly, in any group, there will be criminal people who want to harm others.

                        Alicia of Cambion,
                        Modest Maiden

  • You know, perhaps someone could take the time to read through these threads and extract the essential issues and the various precautions people have found useful and put them into some sort of "event survival guide" which would be useful to all areas of historic recreational pursuits, and newbies most of all.

    I'd be happy to post the result on my website and give due credit to those who did the work.

    Any volunteers?
  • I have been thinking, perhaps it is time that we got a history of the criminal reports from PENNSIC from the PA State Police and posted them publicly somewhere.

    I believe this would serve everyone better than all the distortion and denial which is going on.

    Admittedly it will only be the tip of the iceberg as it cannot address all those cases which went unreported.
    • i don't wish to further any anger that people are feeling, but i would say that when people are at an event, they should treat it as they would just being in a new town that they are visiting....
      ... take in the sights, meet new friends, share interests, and have fun...

      But do so in a SAFE manner, be sure to have known friends along, maybe come up with some code words to say things like "get me away from this person" or "i think they're nice, what do you think?"...

      don't go into any situation looking for a fight, bad things will always result. be relaxed, have fun, but watch your back and your friends back...

      and when you have a chance to do this, maybe somewhere safe and quiet ...try practicing yelling for help... (don't do it in a situation where you might be viewed as crying wolf)

      so PRACTICE CALLING OUT FOR HELP!!! seriously.... i almost died from an accidental wound i got as a child... i could not bring myself to call out for help.

      the events i go to are by far more safe than the town i live in, but there are still a few people around that will try an take advantage, just don't invite this problem. and try to help others around you.

      huggs, d'ner : )
    • YES!
      Eridun, - yes! Positive thoughts, actions, and conversation about the upcoming War is a whole lot better than stirring the paranoia pot as so many have over the past few years as to this sort of Pennsic tale.
      Sure, - I'll believe bad things have happened, - and certainly do wish they never have and never will happen again.
      But I am so sick-to-death with the "Oooo.. look out or you could be next" sort of threads that have popped up over the years that offer nothing but paranoid-sounding and inducing suggestions and only a modicum of common-sense ideas.
      That idea of a thread dedicated to such stuff flys with me. Keep the worriers off the regular channels of fun and commentary. Suits me right down to the ground.
      Here's a few "survival" techniques I would contribute to such a thread...
      1: Bring a sturdy, non-breakable mug. And a teather so you can't lose it. Do NOT carry a goblet, mug, or other glass drinking vessel around with you outside of your camp. Please. Ask Badger, - er.. - ahem, - "Sir Baldwin" about that one if you're wondering why...
      2: Sturdy shoes that'll carry you through good and bad roads, trails, and tall, wet grass. Don't bother me to get you a cart to carry you about if you've worn pretty slippers or gone barefoot and then had a foot ruined due to glass, a sharp stake or rock, or a turned ankle from no support.
      3: Bring enough alcohol (if you do imbibe, - skip this one if you do not...) - to last you through the event, and then double that so you can be a good neighbor. Do you live close to me? :-D
      4: Bring a mini-mag or other SMALL, CONCEALABLE, means of TEMPORARY light for portacastles, extremely black trails, dropped mugs, etc. Candles good. Coleman lantern or fluorescent tube portable sun - bad.
      5: Leave your rave-induced mouth-sized glowsticks at home. And their larger kin. Please. At least when outside of your own camp.
      6: Garb up with something warm as well as something suitable for heat. You'll be seeing/experiencing both. Gothy T-shirts, studded leather dogcollars, trench coats, velveteen cobwebbed stretchy dresses and baggy shorts with a chain dragging against your calf would not be very effective for either malady and may simply offend a plethora of others who are attending this Medieval event. Just make an attempt. Everyone will appreciate and encourage you if you do. We'll just not invite you to tomorrow night's party if you do not. Didja get that or should I make it a little clearer? And I've never yet seen a painting of medivel peeps with 5+ lip-piercings. Show me one and I'll eat my words, in front of you, - with ketchup. My usual garb may not be "true" to period, but I'm making an attempt to fit the atmosphere promised in the tales. Be nice and give it a try too?
      7: Be aware of what's going on around you. If it's all too perfectly clear and in focus, and it's dark out, - drink more. But still, keep aware.
      8: It's usually more fun going party-hopping at night with a friend. Or two. (and it's easier for two to carry your sorry-ass back to camp)
      9: It's already been said. Daggers are period. Pulling them out and carrying them around in front of you like a cross in a graveyard when you're travelling down some dark path is not.
      10: Mundane authorities are a buzz-kill. See my description of goth-garb to understand why. Last resort. Ask for a couple burly types for help in righting a wrong over whippin' out that cell-phone and dialing 911 if you can. Keep that one ready for severed arms and such.
      11: Speaking of cell-phones. Do I need to say it? In PRIVATE somewhere where we CAN'T SEE YOU. (or hear you, - please?) Buzz-kill. DUH. Typical walking celly conversation @ War...
      "I'm at Pennsic, - what are you doing? - Nothing - Me either, just hanging out around the Lake - are you going to the (insert Mundane event here) this weekend? - Nope - Well, I just wanted to...."
      Jeez-o-Petes... - get-a-clue. Yer at War, - who CARES what they're doing at home? They're losers and you're not.
      12: Drink water! It's your friend. Well, - during the day it is at least. I abhor the stuff after dark tho... ;-)
      13: Spare dry socks. In a Ziplock. Bring extras to auction if needed for more alcohol after a downpour.
      14: Condoms are not perfect protection against either pregnancy nor STD's. Face it. Study the facts. See my description of the drawn dagger mentioned afore for talisman-effects. Be smart, KNOW your partner, and nothing, but nothing can beat a blood-test for being certain. Condoms are better than nothing, - but are NOT a talisman against diddly-squat. So please keep the cutsey little mantras about their qualities to yerself.
      15: Read Klaus the Toymakers book on bad garb. Read the sequel. Read 'em again. (I'm in there, - I just KNOW it...)
      16: Leave the charge-card in the car and deal in cash. It's harder to actually let loose of a real, crunchy-crisp $100 bill for that object you really don't need and not have gas money home than it is to break out the charge-plate. Try it. It works.
      17: Bananas are good for you in hot weather. So eat some fruit. (shaddup "D.", - but you know we luv ya man...) ;-)
      18: Bring extra tent stakes. And a tarp which you have no intended purpose for.
      19: Tinned pasta and a fork. You ever drink a lot and get the munchies @ 4 AM? Riiiiiiiightttt....
      20: If you're gonna play that boom-box in camp, please try to keep it to somewhat-period-sounding tunes and keep it in the tent? No, - NIN is NOT period. There are NO period-esque rap tunes either. If you can hear it on the path outside your camp, - it's prolly too LOUD.

      Yes, - I'm an opinionated bastard. I'll say it so you don't need to. ;-)
      But most of these are pretty useful for the 2 week long Medieval event we all love to call the Pennsic War. (or just "War", for short..) So get on the stick, get your War face on, and start thinking about how you can make it more fun for yourself and for all of those thousands of friends that will be there milling, fighting, drinking, and carousing around you!

      • Heh heh ----

        Ondreadan, - D'ner... - I wasn't responding to either of your posts, - funny... I had left the 'puter to sell a guy a monitor and then finished my post.
        But too funny how I sort of "responded" to stuff you each had to say... ;-)

        Ennyhow... - that trailer isn't unloading itself...
        • x2 on cowboys post
          • Oh and I'll add

            ...Cars are for getting to Pennsic, not for getting around Pennsic.
            • I'll agree with that for War week, - but until they get the transport schedule set and get things usable and run 'em 'till at least 2 AM on 1st AND second week, - there's not a lot else one can do. We (and a lot of other camps) usually keep one vehicle in camp for ice/town runs and to pick peeps up in the parking lot when they park their cars through 1st week and the middle weekend, since they just don't seem to be able to create and keep a schedule. Or enough viable transports.

              I wonder when someone will get a refrigerated truck and make camp deliveries of real ice, - not half-melted bags of water. Now that'd have to be a lucrative endeavor... And save on a lot of traffic. Just ain't no way anyone's gonna get enough ice onto that butt-ugly bus (sure do miss the wagons) for a camp of about 30 - 40 people all at one time. And no, a cart wouldn't probably work either with the hills and amounts some camps would need. Logistics would either place an ice machine somewhere at the back of the Lake, or as aforementioned, an ice transport on a regular twice-a-day route just to keep vehicle traffic down. To eliminate something disliked you need to find something to take it's place that's better.
              • Why did they stop the wagon and go to the stupid busses?
                It is damn near imposiable to get on thoes things in armor with shield and weapons. The wagon you passed your shield up and hopped on. I don't mind the walk from the bog to get ice. I am building an insulated box to put on my wooden cart. I hate all the cars myself, mostly at night but we use a pickup to get the camp to the battle field and the dailey keg deliveries.
                • I hear ya.
                  The box idea sounds like a good one. Use an old thick-walled styrofoam cooler and it'll keep the stuff "dry-cold" all the way home. I have a cooler in my pavilion made form an old wooden futon (don't ask, - yes, - it looks period and nothing like a futon...) and an old styrofoam jobbie I scrounged from the Serengheti a few years back that will keep my gallon jugs of frozen choco-coffee frosty until almost middle weekend. (if opened minimally) Styro and wood are a great combo, and use strips of blue-board insul to fill in any larger gaps between the tapered sides of the cooler and the inside of the wooden box. Oh, and remember to give the inside of your box a double-coating of a good outdoor spar varnish for the condensation that'll accrue so it won't soak up water and rot on ya.
                  Too bad one can't bring something like 12 blocks and 25-30 bags home that way tho... (cart) Grrr... Thank 'eavens we have a numbers/space limitation on our wunnerful Clan or camp ice runs would be *so* undoable.

              • >I wonder when someone will get a refrigerated truck and make camp deliveries of real ice, - not half-melted bags of water. Now that'd have to be a lucrative endeavor... And save on a lot of traffic. Just ain't no way anyone's gonna get enough ice onto that butt-ugly bus (sure do miss the wagons) for a camp of about 30 - 40 people all at one time. And no, a cart wouldn't probably work either with the hills and amounts some camps would need. Logistics would either place an ice machine somewhere at the back of the Lake, or as aforementioned, an ice transport on a regular twice-a-day route just to keep vehicle traffic down. To eliminate something disliked you need to find something to take it's place that's better.

                Actually, we used to do this in the Beaver Clan, make huge ice runs using a pickup that had a cap. We went into town and got it cheaper and got so much ice that it barely got moist on the outside. It saved money and meant only one vehicle was down in camping area proper at one time. It also supplied the little ice selling kids with their ice cheaper.

                It got to be too much of a hassle though because people rarely planned ahead, even just one day ahead.
      • Agree with Cowboy's post on being prepared...

        Would emphasize a couple of things in a slightly different light...

        1. Have a couple of pairs of footwear to wear. One that works in rain and ankle deep mud. A second that is comfortable on dry days or while your bad weather footwear is drying out. As much as some may cringe, when the ground is REALLY bad, no one will expect you to be ruining your good period leather footwear by wearing them. Subtle mundane shoes will be acceptable at times when things are bad.

        2. Little handheld flashlights that won't bother anyone are available for $1 at the dollar store. They even already have batteries...

        3. Unbreakable mugs or drinking gear are a must. Staggering around with glassware is almost as bad as staggering around with a sharp dagger.

        4. Have a big sheet of plastic or a tarp, like Cowboy says, not used for anything else that is ready for that night when the wind is blowing sideways and the water has found a previously undiscovered way to drip into the tent. The tarp will be the perfect answer to toss over everything until the storm calms down.

        and one more...

        5. Bring garb that is good in the heat (like heat index of 120F days) and bring garb that is good for the cold nights (like near freezing). Having a sleeping bag rolled up and tucked away, even if you never have to use it, is a good idea.

        and yet one more...

        6. Come ready to have fun. Always remember that War is a vacation. It is YOUR vacation. It is THEIR vacation. If there is a chance of drama, just say NO and walk away. Golden Rule as someone else stated...

        Is it War yet?
  • Unfortunately every year more incidents happen at Pennsic. People forget that the site is not secure and with all the people there, some bad apples are bound to be present. Every year more thefts and assaults happen. I think that we all like to believe and SCA event is a safe place. Sadly, we must be realistic and start behaving in a way to protect ourselves and our camps. I think people need to remember news like this when they wander around from party to party. The easiest thing in the world is to stay in groups when traveling, keep an eye on your friends and not leave your belongings lying out around camp. They are basic safety tips but will help deter the occassional criminal and petty theft.

    Sad but true folks.
    • You may be correct Kisaiya, - I dunno. I have heard of perhaps a few more thefts in recent years, but certainly nothing like an increase in assaults or any of the more "paranoia-inducing" problems. Actually, I think there have been only 3 - maybe 4, - at the most 5, which I can remember making discussions since XXII and I've been at every War for two weeks except that ONE War, - and we ain't discussin' that one... :-P

      M'self? If I ever found someone rummaging around in my War "home" they'd get the same treatment they would if found here in my mundane abode. Details shall be omitted. But I wouldn't fight fair in such circumstances. And "Uncle" wouldn't be honored.
      • One word, traps!
        Oh, you say he was seriously injured in my tent.
        What? My sword fell on him while he was sticking his head through the flaps? Did you say the rear flaps?
        Wait!!!!! Why was he sticking his head in my tent? Especially when I was not around? And through the back of the tent?
        • We had actually been booby trapping and alarming the Court of Miracles some years ago. Haven't been in a couple years, so not sure if the gang still does it or not. But I do know that if you tried to sneak into camp in the dark from the back, not only would you get wet, but you'd be well and royally screwed. Not to mention being trapped alone in the dark with a bunch of pissed-off Roma with chivs, clubs, and other implements of mayhem.

          If you are a thief or rapist, then what's nice about the Court is that it is a dark, secluded camp. If you are a thief or rapist and you get caught, then what sucks about the Court is that it is a dark, secluded camp.

          There were also some rumors about how dangerous our traps were. I will leave that open to interpretation.
          • I should have mentioned that our trap-laying and "we will work you over" attitutude came from being robbed one night. Most likely by townies jumping the fence and then the creek. (which is one reason why the idea of limiting Pennsic to members only is ludicrous. That rule doesn't apply to trespassing and determined townies.)

            In fact, one of our guy's tent wall got slashed with knife by a guy wanting to sneak inside without being seen from the front. While his lady slept about a foot away. It was pretty scary.

            His was the rear-most tent. Townies, no doubt about it.
  • "For whatever reason (simple unavailability, refusal, anything else) woman is out by herself and the worst happens. Does she get blamed because she was wandering around by herself and/or for breaking the "must have an escort" rule? "

    My answer would be a simple "yes". She put herself in a bad situation. Does it lessen the guilt of the attacker. >

    Pewter, I must STRENUOUSLY disagree with you on this point. If a woman outside alone is raped, that most assuredly does NOT make it even the least little bit her fault.

    If I choose to wear low-cut top or a short skirt, does that mean I am asking to be raped, and therefore deserve it? I totally fail to see the parallel between going for a walk and doing drugs, and I find it incredibly offensive and sexist of you that you draw these parallels.
    • Have to agree with you on this one Laurensa... - and Harpsidah's earlier post...

      ...not that I would condone women wandering around in low-cut blouses or their hair worn loose or the sight of a nicely-turned ankle now... Heaven forbid! I should need to confine myself to my tent were I subjected to such horrors!
      Although it might not be advisable for a lady to wander alone in the dark at times, - I would have to stand and say that she should have the right to do so any time, any where, and in any garb she wishes without the slightest worry of troubles finding her except perhaps the possibility of stepping off the road and turning an ankle or tripping over a drunkard and dropping her drinking vessel. (chalice?)

      Pennsic is filled with wannabe heroes, (ask me about the box turtle on the highway up in Ealdormere sometime.. lol! ) - and the idea of patrols, be they Mundane or SCAdian, - turns my tummy. Anyone who does not know that one scream (and there's a difference between such a scream and one of Fey's unbelievably cool, loud yells..) would probably bring at least a half-dozen armed people to the rescue would quickly learn of our SCAdian ways. (live in the woods we do, - surrounding every tree, rock and glen of the Bog do the SCAdians. Away from the dark side you mus... - er.. - wrong allegory... oops)

      Anyhow, - I need to go out and mow the friggin' lawn. Have fun arguin' amongst yerselves. I've worried at this bone for a number of years now and no one wants to hear me going off again. Just leave me a beer tho, will ya?

      Cheers! ;-)
      • Cowboy,

        "Although it might not be advisable for a lady to wander alone in the dark at times, - I would have to stand and say that she should have the right to do so any time, any where, and in any garb she wishes without the slightest worry of troubles finding her except perhaps the possibility of stepping off the road and turning an ankle or tripping over a drunkard and dropping her drinking vessel. (chalice?) "

        Hmmmm.... makes me think there is a gross misunderstanding going on...

        I believe that no woman should ever be raped and that there is no excuse for a rape ever occurring. I hope that is obvious to everyone but it doesn't seem to be...

        I also believe, in the same philosophy of what Cowboy stated, that no clerk in a 7-11 should ever have to face having a gun stuck in their face and having money demanded from them in the middle of the night.

        There should be no murders or muggings or thefts or child abuse or whatever. BUT those things do occur in this world and so what is left to all of us is do what we can to avoid having those things occur.

        So we lock our cars and homes. We imprison criminals. We have two clerks at the 7-11 to lessen the chance of robbery. We avoid the bad parts of town at night.

        Ladies, are we in disagreement on this part of things? I feel like I am being beaten up for giving a slightly different version of the "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" speech.

    • Laurensa,

      Let's say we are in Indianapolis since it is a big city I know fairly well. The west side is known for being dangerous after dark based on the number of violent crimes that occur there. I would recommend to any friend, male or female, that they not venture around the west side of Indy alone at night.

      If they do wander alone in that part of the city after dark, and something happens to them, would you maintain that they had no part in what happened? No one "asks" to be raped. But does the individual have no responsibility not to put themselves in situations that put themselves at risk?

      Tootenkaka(make believe name) is an island filled with cannibals. Don't go there... You choose to go and get eaten. Do you have no responsibility for what happened to you?

      This isn't about low-cut top or a short skirt. Let's get the focus off of rape and off of females. This is about "ignoring good advice" from friends whose concern is for your well-being. I warn my friends, my children, even strangers about the dangers of doing drugs. If they choose to ignore it and die of an overdose, they have no responsibility?

      It's dangerous to be alone in the dark, even at Pennsic. My advice is not to do it. Find an escort. Be smart. Be safe.

      Shift gears one more time. We teach our kids about "stranger danger" in school to avoid them being taken advantage of by predatory adults. What is taught to the kids is good advice that will hopefully help them to avoid dangerous situations in the future and NEVER be a victim. The "have an escort" recommendation at Pennsic is no different than "stranger danger" in that it is something that if you follow the advice, it will help to keep you safer. Failure to follow the advice could put you at risk. I merely maintain that if you choose to accept the risk and something happens, then you a partially to blame.

      I would hold myself to blame if I did something against the advice of others and suffered some negative results. Why wouldn't I hold myself accountable for my decisions?

      • This isn't about low-cut top or a short skirt. Let's get the focus off of rape and off of females. This is about "ignoring good advice" from friends whose concern is for your well-being. I warn my friends, my children, even strangers about the dangers of doing drugs. If they choose to ignore it and die of an overdose, they have no responsibility?

        It's dangerous to be alone in the dark, even at Pennsic. My advice is not to do it. Find an escort. Be smart. Be safe.

        Shift gears one more time. We teach our kids about "stranger danger" in school to avoid them being taken advantage of by predatory adults. What is taught to the kids is good advice that will hopefully help them to avoid dangerous situations in the future and NEVER be a victim. The "have an escort" recommendation at Pennsic is no different than "stranger danger" in that it is something that if you follow the advice, it will help to keep you safer. Failure to follow the advice could put you at risk. I merely maintain that if you choose to accept the risk and something happens, then you a partially to blame.

        Doing drugs is a conscious decision to knowingly ingest a substance that you KNOW is harmful to your body. I don't feel real sorry for people who are suffering from a hangover, either.
        But to my mind there is a HUGE difference between deliberately doing something harmful to your body, and being blamed because some creature from teh world's underbelly crawled out from under his rock and decided to *harm you*.

        Unless we are talking about a conspiracy of some sort that has gone wrong, the victim is NOT to blame for the actions of another individual. That would be why they are called the victim. And this attitude that "she brought it on herself" is why sexual assault victims are still among the least likely to report their attack.
    • I recently read an excellent quote on this topic. Unfortunately I can't remember it exactly, but it basically was:

      "If I walk down a sidewalk in the bad part of town completely drunk and stark naked, the only person who will rape me is a rapist."
      • "It seems like an awfully high price to pay for all of us just so the few females that insist on independence can roam freely. "

        I understand your point, however this was a pretty inflamatory way to word it.
        • Dulcy,

          "It seems like an awfully high price to pay for all of us just so the few females that insist on independence can roam freely. "

          "I understand your point, however this was a pretty inflamatory way to word it. "

          Yeh, bad choice of words. I suppose I am really struggling with trying to understand why a female would not seek an escort in order to be "more" safe. Maybe because I am not female... Maybe it is the "must have" portion of it...

          I make myself available to escort females home from parties and our camp, not because of sexist reasons, but because I would not want those females to ever suffer the trauma of being raped. I generally am a little insistent because I would feel bad for a long, long time if something did happen because the lady refused the offer. In general, we guys do the escorting because all of you are important to us!

          • Thank you Pewter, that's exactlly what I was trying to find the words to say.

            Pewter sais,"I suppose I am really struggling with trying to understand why a female would not seek an escort in order to be "more" safe. Maybe because I am not female... Maybe it is the "must have" portion of it...

            I make myself available to escort females home from parties and our camp, not because of sexist reasons, but because I would not want those females to ever suffer the trauma of being raped. I generally am a little insistent because I would feel bad for a long, long time if something did happen because the lady refused the offer. In general, we guys do the escorting because all of you are important to us! "
            • Years ago, a friend of mine and I were asked by one of the organizers of that year's Pennsic if there was any place she or I felt unsafe. She and I were astonished. We looked at each other, shrugged, then laughed a little as we explained to the asker that we were from two "not so nice" parts of Chicago at the time. Walking in our neighborhoods safely consisted of the same things as walking around Pennsic and it was second nature for us.

              I see it as boiling down to not being stupid, being aware of yourself, your company, and most especially of your environment. I will rarely drink excessively at parties at other encampments (I am that person usually carrying her own water or else scouting out a camp's potable water supply). I also kindly refuse escorts from all but two or three select males. Why? I find it easier to be aware of my environment and who is where when I don't have someone blocking my periferral vision on one side or distracting my hearing with conversation.

              Also, sometimes I just don't want people knowing where I camp or which tent in the camp is mine.
      • Keeping in mind, of course, that traveling in company is a good idea.

        I was raised with "stay out of arms reach and run to a trusted adult if you have any worries" rather than "stranger danger".

        I do think there're a big differences between an area where there are groups of people who have chosen to be dangerous, how one chooses to teach children to not take candy from random people, and how best to stay safe when walking around a campground filled with mostly decent people.
        • Elizabeth,

          "I do think there're a big differences between an area where there are groups of people who have chosen to be dangerous, how one chooses to teach children to not take candy from random people, and how best to stay safe when walking around a campground filled with mostly decent people."

          Most of the people on the west side of Indy are decent folks. It's just that there are criminal elements that seem to congregate there as well. So even west Indy might qualify as having mostly decent people.

          But you said something interesting that I'd ask you to expound on. How would your advice to children be different between SCA and the outside world? How about advice to women? Maybe I am asking what things you see as a threat outside of the SCA that you do not perceive as a threat inside our Society.

          Will be interested in seeing what you say,
          • If I'm in a part of a city where I don't want to be alone, I also don't want to have only one person with me. I haven't read any story about Pennsic that'd make me feel unsafe walking with only one other person, even if that person was another female who was even weaker than myself. But then I also might choose to walk alone if I knew I was going to be able to stick to lit paths.(Hey, it could happen.) I also might choose to get a big group together if I need to go a long way mostly in the dark.

            I guess I just felt like you were saying that walking alone at night at Pennsic was like walking alone at night in a big city. When really, it's more like walking alone during the day down alleys in a big city.

            On a related note, speaking of ways to stay safe at Pennsic at night, I'd think a small air horn would be quite useful. No need to worry about shouting for help, it'd do it for you.
            • Oh yes, and the west side of Indy does have mostly decent people. Any part of any city has mostly decent people. The question is, how many of the people walking around at night in a city are mostly decent people and how many are people who have violence in mind? Then compare that ratio to the numbers for Pennsic.
              • Ok, here's my 2 cents:

                I don't really know a whole lot of people at Pennsic and don't camp with any particular group. Even when I have camped with a gruop, the people of that group had different interests from me. If I followed the rule of "never go anywhere without an escort" I would never make it to the places that I would want to go. Luckily I've had a bosom buddy for the last few years to hang out with. But this year she may not be coming. Which means that if I want to go to any of the parties that I normally go to, I will have to walk by myself. I don't think that where I go at Pennsic should have to depend on weather or not I would be going alone. That would effectively ruin my Pennsic.
                • I am of the strong opinion that women get un-requested offers of escort when they're obviously single or possibly available, and have to ask otherwise. But I could be cynical. If one of these brave protectors was also a volunteer to protect the vulnerable trannies and pretty boys that might be attacked before, during or after a neighborhood gay pride parades, or stood up for a loud obnoxious homeless lady when other people were trying to steal her stinky shopping cart, I might be more likely to believe the "Oh, I'm just honorable that way" statement.

                  I've noticed in this thread that any time a woman pipes up with a comment that hey, not such a bad idea, and they do go around with a *female* buddy, some guy will then announce that EVEN TWO WOMEN AREN'T SAFE FROM A GANG and so on and so forth. Pul-leeze. I think even two women aren't safe from an Inquisition of Protective Guys, maybe.

                  We aren't scared. Company and friends on the road will always be welcome (and I think I speak for almost all of the wandering harpists in stating that strong-armed roadies are blissfully accepted). But overprotective nannies warning of boogiemen in the dark? Not.

                  Pewter, there have been times in my life when I was badly injured and long-term disabled - I didn't go to Pennsic then, so I have no experience on how the "helpless" would be treated if they wanted escort down the dark paths. I did, however, accept help from strangers that noticed that I needed assistance, and I was careful *not* to wonder around at night (ok, not totally, but never without weaponry, anyway). Because of my injuries, I was vulnerable. And I appreciated the people that offered to protect me from the scum that would take advantage of that vulnerability.

                  Here's my beef with what you wrote:
                  (1) Pennsic is not full of scum, it's full of hero-types and should not be compared to a dark alley in a bad neighborhood, EVER.

                  ===*1(a) - ok, forgot about the pirates. But still.

                  (2) Are you actually equating being *female* with being *disabled* in some way? Because the solution to your dilemma, i.e., the perceived danger to women at night in the Cooper's Lake Campground, is better addressed by arming and training the women, not assigning them to men. So I'm puzzled.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Ok, a friend that isn't on tribes just pointed out that I answered my own question when I said Pennsic is "full of hero-types".

                    Men *and* women hero-types.

                    So both the instinct to be heroically protective and the near-offense at being considered "in need of protection" is clashing.

                    Pewter, nevermind. There are plenty of people (men and women) in the dark of night that would like company or escort for whatever reason. Just ask first (and if they say "No" - don't insist!)
                    • Thank you Harpsidhe. What you said.

                      Someone pointed out that they would feel responsible if they offered to escort a woman, she refused, and was attacked. Why would anyone feel responsible for a grown woman's personal decision? Unless you have a relationship with said woman that would suggest otherwise, you aren't responsible for every grown woman around. Sure, should anyone be harmed, I'm sure you and everyone else would feel bad. But responsible? That's kind of arrogant. And as Harpshidhe suggested, would you feel responsible if a guy was attacked?

                      Let's not be silly here.

                      Let me make a distinction here. I appreciate the idea that the men...and women... of the SCA would like to make sure I am safe. I would hope they would feel the same way about anyone, regardless of their looks, gender, or situation. But to hold the atitutude that you are responsible for me because I am a woman and you have a responsiblity to protect me regardless of my own decision or preference is arrogant and offensive. If I ask a man to escort me...and I just might, depending on the circumstances...I would consider him gallant and gentlemanly if he agreed to do it. I would truly appreciate it. I have friends I have made this way who will back me up on that.

                      However, if you offer, and I refuse, don't push it. If you do, you become the guy I will seek protection from. I may have my own reasons for refusing. I may not trust you.
                      • Do you get upset with someone that tries to hold a door for you?

                        Just wondering...
                        • It would depend on the who the "someon" holding the door is, their attitude and demeanor while doing it. And if it is a door that the 'one' it's being held for actually wants to go through at that particular time.
                          • No, I do not. I also hold the door for men and other women. When it's done for me, I thank them. It's called manners.

                            Are you one of these guys who don't respect a woman's "no, thank you?"

                            I'm just curious, too.

                            Listen, I hear what you are saying. You don't think women should take risks. I understand that. I agree. I don't think anyone should take risks. I do think your heart is in the right place. However, to imply that you, as a man, are responsible for all women is arrogant. It's great to be a gentleman. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you should not make yourself available if a woman...or a man...comes to you for help. However, forcing "help" on a woman who is not receptive is not gentlemanly. It's disrepectful and predatory. Like I said, what if you were to insist on walking me home, and I, who didn't know you at all, didn't trust you and wasn't comfortable with that? Do I not have a right to refuse? What if I wish to find my own escort (something I strongly recommend, as I've mentioned in earlier posts? If you were to keep bugging me, I'd go get help and say a dude I didn't know was harrassing me.

                            I don't think you want to be that guy. Because as someone else said, there are PLENTY of "heroes" at Pennsic. And they tend to be large and carry large sticks.
                        • LJ
                          offline 32
                          "Do you get upset with someone that tries to hold a door for you?"

                          If he's being a d**k about it, yes.
                          • <<If he's being a d**k about it, yes. >>

                            THANK you. :D This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine...heh.

                            Sure, there's genuine gallantry. But there's also being so damn starved for social contact with the opposite sex, one VERY ostentatiously performs such small "favors" so the other party will be forced to stop and acknowledge them.

                            Both types can end up being door-holders (and volunteering as nighttime escorts.) The first is much appreciated.

                            But the dude who sprints ahead, flings open the door, and proceeds to stare at me for the full duration of the three minutes it takes me to walk TO the door, while awkward silence reigns? *Him*, I want to punch. He makes my flesh crawl.

                            (Bear in mind, I'm basically horrible and despise people. ;) So YMMV.)
                            • I truly understand where Pewter is coming from and by and large agree with him. We are not trying to insult you ladies or belittle you or take away your independence. Quite the contrary, we offer to help and escort you because we respect you and yes...on a primal level feel the need to protect you. I know doesn’t make sense (esp. in this day and age) but it is how we feel. Blame that damn reptilian cortex!

                              I hold open doors for people because it's the right thing to do. I will stop and help someone unload something heavy because it's the right thing to do. I offer escorts at Pennsic because it's the right thing to do. It is really just common courtesy. If I was in need of someone to walk me back to my camp for any reason I would expect an escort to be offered in return. (I have needed an escort before BTW, but that's a different story and it wasn't because I was drunk).

                              I would however, Never force my services upon another unless the circumstances were extreme A.K.A way to much to drink, etc. I would expect you to question the motives of anyone that was not in your immediate circle of friends that insisted on providing and escort. What if it was a trusted friend? BTW, As far as I’m concerned another woman is an acceptable escort. Any person, male or female are infinitely more vulnerable while alone.

                              Of course yor u're adults and responsible for your own actions. I don't know your husband Laurensa but I bet you he does see himself in someway as your protector. I know I would protect my wife at all costs and she in return would do the same for me.

                              If I offered a lady and escort and she refused and the unspeakable did happen I wouldn’t feel responsible but I would feel bad and wished that I could have done something to help. She made her decision and thus takes responsibility, but that wouldn’t stop the “what if’s” from going through my head.

                              It's a shame that people trying to be chivalrous are being borderline attacked for there efforts, believe it or not some people to honor the code through out there daily lives not just in the SCA. I truly hope that this is because of misunderstanding rather than intent.
                            • heeeee...

                              I hold the door open for other people if I get to the door first and am holding it open anyway. I have issues with the guys who try to then hold the door open for me while I'm already holding it, especially if they are much shorter than I am (and, since I wear heels at work that usually have me at about 6' tall, that's quite a few) and try reaching over my head to take the door. Logic dictates that I have the door open already and am holding it, go through it. And, when you hold the door for me because you were there already and are being polite, I will thank you politely and go on through.

                              ...but yeah, I am an anti-social type too anyway ;)
                              • Of course, there's the complete antithesis of the door-opener:

                                Folks (male OR female) who are so darned lazy they "tailgate" ya all the way to the door, so's to quickly slip through after you open it.

                                I mean, seriously breathing down the back of your neck, to avoid that "OMFG, IT WEIGHS LIKE 100 POWWWWNDS! urrrgh" effort of reaching out to touch the door-handle.

                                If you're both passing through an entrance or exit with several successive doors, the Lazy can get downright comical.

                                (Again: people. Not really a fan. ;) )
                        • Pewter, I understand what you are trying to say, really I do. Now listen to what I am trying to say.

                          I am an adult. Not a very big one, to be sure, but I am, and am responsible for my own actions. If someone chooses to attack me, for whatever reason, that is NOT my responsibility. Period. No man has been "responsible" for protecting me since I moved out of my father's house. My husband and I have a partnership, not a protector/potential victim relationship.

                          I don't object to someone opening a door for me? No. I don't object to common courtesy, and I have taught my sons to open the door for others as well--male or female. I'm raising my boys to be respectful and courteous to others, period. But if you *insist* on escorting me, even if I don't really want you to, I'm going to wonder about your motives.

                          And to compare walking around Pennsic at night to visiting an island filled with cannibals is a bit hyperbolic on your part, don't you think?
                          • Unsu...
                            It's the one's who won't take no for an answer when they offer help and you turn them down that really get to me. I mean, Yes, I appreciate the offer, but you are generally just going to get in the way, and I prefer to do it myself, anyway. Thank you, but no thank you. What's so hard to understand about that?
                            • i try to be helpful when i can, i try to be respectful of everyone i meet, i try to be kind, i like to hugg those that are open and willing to it, and i love to make friends...

                              all this is what i've come to see at pennsic... there really are some truely awesome people to meet. : )
                              • D'ner said "i try to be helpful when i can, i try to be respectful of everyone i meet, i try to be kind, i like to hugg those that are open and willing to it, and i love to make friends...

                                all this is what i've come to see at pennsic... there really are some truely awesome people to meet. : ) "

                                But D'ner not to many people have doors at Pennsic? Maybe that's why it's such a great atmosphere? & I missed my hug last year! LOL!
                                • Wow...

                                  Whatta thread. Sounds all too deep and complicated to me.
                                  I guess I'll have to remove myself from this one until someone can come up with all of the numerical factoids needed so's I can make an informed comment or make any advice that'd be solid and true. I s'pose I'd need to know the number of times women (that'd be any and all women) have ever walked alone down a path or roadway at night at Pennsic. Every woman, every night, every Pennsic, and probably those times would then need to be divided up by the number of stops they might have made into different camps/parties during each night since each camp left would prolly constitute a seperate walk.
                                  Then I guess I'd need to know exactly how many times any woman has been assaulted (not propositioned, tushie-grabbed or hooted at...) - but physically assaulted in the last 35 years, - and then maybe I could come up with some sort of ratio that'd be plausible as to the chances of any random woman being randomly assaulted whilst wandering around in the dark @ War. Then too, I could maybe make an informed comment based on the total ratio of happily wandering women as divided by the number of actual, documented assaults. Comparing said ratio to let's say.... - some such same sort of ratio of walkage/assaultage of any average-sized American city. Any.

                                  - and I'll still place my wager on Pennsic being safer than most people's own neighborhoods.

                                  Now, - I'm not a woman, - although that doesn't mean I've never had the stuff beat out of me before - in a city, - of course. And by 3 guys. But I would bet that if I were, - my penchant for fun and disregard for most herd mentality would probably find me wandering around at night from camp to camp looking for drinks, merriment, new friends, and memorable times in what I consider to be the safest neighborhood from Seattle to P-town. (that's on the Cape, BTW...)
                                  But that's just me... - an' I ain't just quite right... ;-)

                                  • Unsu...
                                    mukhtar wrote:
                                    "So, lets compare notes. I've been quoting from 30+ years of continuous Pennsic service, particularly in the public safety staff sort of thing. I didn't just pull those names out of the hat, so let me add a few; Rouges, Angelsea, Concusar, Norseland..."

                                    ooooh, as the Semi-Fearless Anti Leader of the Rogues i find it intriguing for my camp to be named amongst such illustrious company. so i felt i just had to ask which incident put us over the top? was it the Great Fireworks Scare of Pennsic 34? or how about the unfortunate Accused of Serving a Minor Fracas of Pennsic 24? or possibly the case of the drunken girl and guy who aren't even Rogues having consensual sex on our hillside with an audience of 20 or more people which some how turned into an acusation of rape when the girl willingly went back for another round with said gentleman?
                                    gosh, with so many to choose from its a wonder that anyone shows up for our party anymore. we're clearly not safe to be around.
                                    care to enlighten me? i can't stand not knowing what my particular crime against humanity my camp is being villified for...
                                    • Man... - I miss ALL the fun stuff. When was this "sex-on-the-hillside" incident? dang...

                                      Sure would beat "sex-on-the-beach" - ' WAY less gritty I'd think...

                                      • Honestly, we should've charged admission and given the money to charity.

                                        It's just not cool to point fingers at an entire group and claim they are all "bad". There are acts of heroism that have gone unsung in the Rogue camp. My husband has often offered himself as an escort out of camp and I'm glad that he does. I think that it's a good idea for ladies to have an escort if they are unfamiliar with our territory, are lost or too intoxicated to be wandering off.

                                        I'm a firm believer in Karma and if we can help, we will. Hence, Rusty's Rescue Vehicle. You know you've seen it, or at least heard it in the Swamp. It will be quieter this year with the addition of brand-new exhaust (including mufflers)!

                                        Yup, most households in the swamp does need an in-camp vehicle. Help is often just too far away to be effective. Having an effective way to get ice and water lowers the chance of the whole camp getting sick.

                                        I read the statement about (jokingly) having background checks on new members. You realize that they cost about $100 and take 3 months, right? How do I know? Hubby had to have one done to retain his Hazmat endorsement on his CDL. Our out of pocket expense.

                                        Please know that the Rogues have 2 firemen and 1 police officer in it's ranks. If we had heard the young lady screaming for help, all of us would've been there as fast as we could. No mention has been made of the lady who defended herself with her mug. Help me out here, Wulf, I don't recall her name.....

                                        I don't think there is much that can be done regarding crimes at War. It's getting bigger every year. The best thing we can do is look our for each other, offer help when we can and share alcohol often!
                                        • Angry American,
                                          The statistics Mukhtar is quoting are Pennsic security incidents and are therefore not really relevant to this discussion. Basically if you are from a camp of 100, everything else being equal, you are ten times as likely to have a security incident as a camp with 10 people. If your camp hosts one or more large parties, multiply that by some exponential function. Pentwyvern gets plenty of security write ups for both of these reasons. We have been around for a long time, we are a large group, and we host parties. Also these security calls include things like hauling sick or injured people to the first aid tent. At one of our early Hell Night parties a lady staggered back behind the bar and told us she was sick. One of our other guests had given her a swig of his home brew. She liked it and he told her it was almond liquor or something of that sort to which she was deathly allergic. She had to be helped into the security cart for a ride up top. My guess is most of our security write ups were for noise. In other words, drumming.
                                          • Unsu...
                                            thanks Jim, i figured as much but thought i'd post something anyway for the sheer glee of the thing if nothing else.

                                            and Ambermane, the gal who tagged her would be attacker alongside his cranium with her enormous pewter mug was Jericho from Timberwolfe. i can almost pity him for choosing her. almost.
                                    • I would like to hear what problems Anglesey and Concusar have caused? There was the Ursus and the white gas incident years ago. What else? Stupid accidents don't make for a group of bad people.
                                      • Unsu...
                                        thank you.
                                        Anglessy has been my neighbor for around 10 yrs, and i've never known them to be anything other than fun, polite and welcoming.
                                        Concusar i'm not familiar with...
                                        • Concusar is next to Dalhraidia, to the left side of their camp on the corner. They are the fighting are of Dalhraidia. As far as I know they have never had problems involving security except for the white fuel accident. I'm glad to see Preachain did not make his list. I thought he was just going to name off all the bog camps. We are such bad folk in the bog.
  • wow people sure do like to talk about rape and the possibility of being raped and what to do if you get raped and how to avoid being raped and why some people rape and what they would do if someone tried to rape them and on and on and on...

    Seriously, most of you ugly suckers will never have to worry about it. I've avoided this post on purpose cause its kind of a bring down.
    Cmon yall, shut up about rape and enjoy your pennsic.
  • I just wanted to say

    I go alone from the bog back to my own camp sometimes *quite* late at night (or quite early morning whatever)

    I'm armed, I'm fairly large, and I can scream like hell if I have to.

    ( Rumors that my hair glows in the dark are largely fabricated though)

    That being said

    Holy Crap I can't wait til Pennsic!!!! I miss all you weirdo's!!

    Kate the Wicked
    • I'm with Kate - isn't anyone armed anymore?

      I don't know about the rest of you but I usually have some sort of knife on my person for eating or picking my teeth.

      What sort of idiot jumps a woman (or a man) who's armed?

      And if I'm not armed with a tooth-picker, I'll at least be carrying the uholy grail which will put a hurtin' on ANYONE when it cracks you in the face.

      • Thalia... - you could just either wisecrack or nit-pick 'em to death. - or dearth, - whichever...

        "You call THAT a penis? What you think you gonna do with THAT? - I've seen larger things than that on my poodle's boyfriend!"
        "And what sort of kilt IS that? - you running away from a Japanese woman's boarding school or something? You a kogal gurrl?"

        • You know me too well, sometimes I think, Cowboy! lol!
          • Pennsic XXXVI is now over.
            No Assaults, no Rapes, no Fouls. (just some foul-smelling goo where the tents were...)

            Never did hear as to what the heck was going on back by Timberwolf that one day 1st week tho... The 2 mundane Po-lice cruisers on site didn't exactly go unnoticed or uncommented upon. Hope no one got hurt and if anything was stolen, I hope the cops never found 'em and the SCAdians did... ;-)
            • What about the rubber necker that rolled his car into the middle of the interstate? Did we get any more info about that? My concern being that someday someone will roll off the tinerstate and thru the fence and into campers at 85 miles an hour!

              Other states put up signs warning of slow traffic patterns and such when events are close to the interstate. They also station more police and or troopers to take care of problems. What about the landfill truck that went by 3 or 4 times a day with the frieght train horn? Talk about a nuisance. (sigh)

              Why am I so grumpy? That's really what I want to know?!
              • I don't think it was a rubbernecker, as they were going north, not south.. The completely flipped the car over into the southbound lanes.. I talked to the SCAdian EMT who was at the scene, he said the results were not good...
                • Since they had to life-flight the two people to a hospital, I'd say that things were quite bad.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Bad accidents happen all of the time and it is sad. I pray for the poor souls that are the victims of them.
                    I felt terrible about something that happened on the way home. A Pennsic person that I sort of knew from the NJ or Philly area was stranded on the side of the road with an overheated car and I was in the left lane. I had a couple of gallons of coolant with me which might have helped and I tried and tried to get over, but the traffic was heavy (that damned construction delay right by the nuclear power plant) and nobody would let me get over. I think I could have helped, but it was miles before I could have gotten over towards the shoulder.
                    I hope it worked out alright for him.
                    • Last year on the way home had two SCAdians stop to see if I needed help as I shifted some of the load in the trailer to balance it out a bit better. This year we were almost home when we hit the deer. All was well with only minor damage to the new trailer (sigh). We saw only one other SCAdian pass us near Erie PA headed fro Buffalo and points north I presume?

Recent topics in "Society for Creative Anachronism"