Reading this blew my mind:
forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB...ic.php
I'm speechless. WTF is wrong with people?
forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB...ic.php
I'm speechless. WTF is wrong with people?
posted by:
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What is wrong with people?
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 9:03 AMIt was inferred in a few posts that there was more to the story than the obvious, but they only wanted to pursue the SCA part of it.
I don't care to conjecture on what those other things are in a public forum.
And my dear... I seem to be asking myself that same question twice a week. And it scares me.
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 9:07 AMI can't see how he thought he would get away with it. A level 3 banishment does seem to be a bit much though. A life sentence is a long time. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 9:22 AMThere appears to be more to this story than has been made public. I think I will withold judgment until I know more. (Like anyone cares what I think anyway)
Nikolas -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 9:43 AMLet me ask something though...
My name is not registered nor will I possibly ever register it. Pewter can be authenticated as a last name in period but not a first name. So if I submitted my name, it would end up having to be something like Solomon Pewter. So I have chosen not to register a name and to go by Pewter of Deodar or just plain Pewter. I doubt anyone in the SCA will go after me for that and I doubt official names will ever be an issue as I am not pursuing any awards of any sort.
BUT...
I have made a beautiful shield, which like my 18 by 22 foot pavillion tent, is in my colors of blue and yellow. The shield is actually nice enough that it could pass inspection, but it is unlikely that this old man will ever fight heavy. Where the problem comes is trying to register a device that comes anywhere close to what I want (blue and yellow quarters with a pewter/silver mug in the center to represent my love of meadmaking). I have spoken to several heralds (both in Calontir and in the East) and by the time they come up with something they think will not conflict with anything that has previously been registered, my shield ends up being spiral or cut in eighths or the mug being blue and yellow or having fancy zigzag trimming around the outside of the shield. But they end up nothing like what I wanted in the first place...
The problem is that even though my desired design may be unique, it turns out that it "conflicts" with any blue and yellow quartered shield with anything roughly square or rectangular in the center in silver. So the choice is to bastardize my simple design to the point where it is no longer representative of my idea of the Dream or to just never register it and use it anyway. Being a rebel, I am opting for the second path. Now it scares me that someone, somewhere in the world, who has a blue and yellow quartered shield with some silver square'ish object in it, that they have registered, can take offense to my shield sitting outside my tent and have me thrown out of the SCA (or even Pennsic) for displaying it.
Is this a slippery slope issue? -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 10:31 AMGood Milord Pewter... May shade find you wherever you choose to sit, and may the water from your fountains always be cool and quenching.
I'm not a muckity muck herald, so take what I say with a couple grains of salt sprinkled over boiled corn that has been buttered. MMmm Corn. :)
From what I understand, it was totally in period to conflict in heraldry. As to having a similar shield as someone else... eh, it happens.
::shrugs shoulders::
As long as you aren't EXACTLY copying someone else's heraldry (down to the fine detailing) it can be chalked up to being similar.
And you can't be thrown out of the SCA for similar heraldry or we'd *SO* have fewer members. :))) This is not identity theft.
One of my banners (the polite one... Don't ask about the impolite one...) has a red trillium in the centre. There is a lady in my own kingdom who ALSO has a trillium in her heraldry. The only two differences between our heraldry is that my trillium is red, hers is purple, and I have a jaggedy (dancetty?) border. From a distance, you probably wouldn't notice much difference.
Someone may get a bit upset that yours is prettier. Someone may look at it and go "hmm... looks like mine" and go on with their life. You could have incidents where people think that you have one of their shields and pick it up thinking it is theirs.
You could possibly meet up with someone who is so anal that having that similar of a shield will raise their ire. And if you do meet this person, you will have to deal with them (just like in period!!!). And remember, if you didn't register it, you don't have an SCA legal leg to stand on. This is why the heralds were suggesting changes to what you wanted. They wanted to help differentiate it a bit so you could register it.
As to registering the legal name of Pewter... why not just register some name? Even the Solomon Pewter. People will call you what they know you as, and you will still have the benefit of a registered name.::shrugs:: your decision, m'lord.
No, this isn't a slippery slope issue. You can relent slightly and let the heralds help you, or you can do without and play without heraldic involvement. Either way, you won't get thrown out for it. :) Maybe it is just my kingdom, but we consider it tacky to display heraldry if it isn't registered. YMMV.
Muallim Valizan -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 1:59 PMValizan,
Thank you for your ideas and thoughts. The kind words made me smile and lightened my day.
I think that I missed target on my post. What I really wanted to ask is how anal someone could get due to a heraldic duplication (accidental). Could it run the course to a banishment of any sort if I wanted to keep what I had?
"Maybe it is just my kingdom, but we consider it tacky to display heraldry if it isn't registered."
I hadn't heard this yet but imagine that I may somewhere down the road. To me, I enjoy heraldry for heraldry's sake. In other words, I really enjoy any displays, whether registered or not. I love banners and pennants and shields and hangings. The more the merrier. I have yet to see any that are labelled as being registered or not... *smile*
I also have read on certain kingdom's websites about restrictions on the sort of banners/pinions/pennants you can fly above your tent based on your SCA rank. Has anyone ever made an issue of this? I fly very thin long blue and yellow quartered pennants above my tent. They are there because they suit my vision of what the Dream is for me, not for me to pretend to be royalty of some sort. Are there those within our ranks that would take serious issue with my pennants?
Peace,
Pewter -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 2:04 PMGlad to have brought some smile to your day. :) That's what this game is about, no?
Again, I'm no heraldry expert, but I doubt people would take serious issue with your pennants. If you claimed they were your heraldry and they weren't... that might get some over zealous heralds britches in a knot, but otherwise... meh.
Salaam al Pewteri
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 2:07 PM/sarcasm flag/
But isn't identity theft "period"? If the guy had only provided documentation to the kingdom A&S officer before he was found out, maybe he could have received his Laurel in Subterfuge instead of the Level 3.
With a huge grin,
Pewter -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 4:35 AMBeing banished is surely period and being outcast and outlawed and despised. So I guess he is period. And periods being points of finality, I guess he's really really period. There may be more to the story but it doesn't matter as far as his involvment in the Society. Every knight, artisan, whomever, who has worked hard to acheive their level of excellence was slapped in the face by his actions. We know nothing about the man whose identity he stole. ID theft is serious. If he would do it for fun, what would he do for real.
Gabrielle
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 2:16 PMI also have read on certain kingdom's websites about restrictions on the sort of banners/pinions/pennants you can fly above your tent based on your SCA rank. Has anyone ever made an issue of this? I fly very thin long blue and yellow quartered pennants above my tent.>>
TYhis may have been the case in the past, but no longer. The ONLY kingdom-level restriction anymore is on a very spcific type of badge on standards in either Meridies or Trimaris--forgive me, I forget which one--and it is, as I said, very specific, so I doubt it will be an issue. If you are displaying armory that is identical to someone else's, you would likely be asked courteously (I hope) to re-design it, but no, I don't think you could be banned for such a thing. It would, however, be considered rude and tacky, and certainly wouldn't win you any friends. (This is assuming that the other person, who has registered the device, is bothered by it.)
That said, Pewter, it could be such fun to help you design a device that is everything you want, AND registerable. Won't you let me help you? Come to the dark side...we have cookies.... -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:28 PMPewter, valizan and Laurensa,
Speaking as both a Herald (with a capital H), and a former King of Calontir (where Pewter lives or lived, in Deodar), I'd like to say a few things.
1. You do not need to register your arms to display them. You run the risk, as you've seen, of someone registering something similar, and then possibly getting confused with them, but the difference is that while you may be displaying something similar to someone else, you're not claiming Titles of Nobility nor wearing the associated regalia, and that will always seperate you from the guy who was impersonating a Knight of Trimaris.
2. Valizan is correct, some Kingdoms have sumptuary laws regarding sizes and types of banners appropriate to individuals based on their rank. Calontir is *not* one of these, at least wasnt' when I was King, so make and fly what banner you will.
3. Laurensa is right, designing arms that suit the owner as well as the College of Arms *IS* fun, and since she's volunteering, I strongly advise you consider taking her up on the offer. DO NOT believe any herald who says your idea is "too simple" to register, much simple heraldry is still available specifically because so many others in the past though exactly this, and registered more complex designs. Find a herald competent in Conflict Checking (I suggest an email to the Kingdom Herald of the Outlands, email address available on their website, she's my ex-wife, and one of the best I've ever met at conflict checking) and ask them to see if there really is a conflict on the books, not one that some other herald imagined is on the books.
Bon chance mon ami! Bon chance!
Cathyn, title, title, blah blah blah. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 1:08 PM2. Valizan is correct, some Kingdoms have sumptuary laws regarding sizes and types of banners appropriate to individuals based on their rank. Calontir is *not* one of these, at least wasnt' when I was King, so make and fly what banner you will.
If I may be so bold, Your Grace, there actually has been some discussion of this in recent weeks (shortly before Pennsic) on one of the Heraldry lists, and the only sumptuary law regarding the display of banners is the one I mentioned before, of one very specific badge in ONE kingdom.
So Pewter, fly those banners with joy and pride! More pageantry, I say!
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 12:01 PMit can be similar as long as its not identical. I believe i was told two differences to pass, you can use one difference if you have permission from the other registered arms.
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 2:55 PMNot to denegrate your train of thought, Pewter, but in the case linked at the beginning of this thread - the issue wasn't of someone taking offence at the the percieved 'copying' of someone else's device, but of a person actually 'assuming' the identity of another player. The imposter in question was only found out because another person at war personally knew the knight that he (the imposter) was purporting to be.
Do I think an issue of possibly copied devices is grounds for a level 3 banishment? No, and I would hope no one else would either. Do I think a level 3 banishment for a person who assumes the name of another scadian (peer or not), most likely counting on no one questioning him due to the distance from his said home kingdom/barony/shire, is too harsh? Absolutely not. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 3:38 PM>>According to the posts on AA, he had, at one time, been a man-at-arms to the knight he was impersonating.<<
Wow. Just WOW.
And this joker didn't think anyone would REALIZE he wasn't the knight he claimed to be? That's incredibly stupid.
Pewter - you can register any "passable" name with the caveat "known as Pewter". I've seen a lot of people have long, drawn out names like Maria Theresa Consuela Fernandez del Castillo Cordoba known as Mae (or something like that when they name they WANTED couldn't be "properly" registered). So it's not unknown or unusual. At least in the Midrealm.
Also, I don't really think anyone can get upset about "non-registered" banners flying. Especially with all of the pirate flags, my "don't tread on me" US flag and my Buddhist victory banner flying. (Not that I'm a Buddhist, I think the banner with all of its tongues is uber cool and I love the colors. So I fly it.)
Fly the banners! They make the field pretty! -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 7:20 AM"Fly the banners! They make the field pretty! "
Absolutely! I'd have to say that I am NOT in the SCA for the toil and sweat under a load of full armor. Instead, the Dream for me is the beauty, the pageantry, the pennants in the breeze, the courtesy being shown one another, and so on.
The same is reflected in my 15 year old daughter, whose joy in the SCA is to dress like a pretty princess. But now I find we have rules that prevent her from wearing even a circlet in her hair until she achieves her AoA. Again, will it be a problem if she does? What a shame if it is...
Peace,
Pewter -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 5:57 AM
In the game we accept certain things we can't do, so that when we can do them they carry more weight. Would your daughter be proud to just wear a circlet or a circlet that came as a result of her aoa? It could give her something to strive for.
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 9:13 AM"Would your daughter be proud to just wear a circlet or a circlet that came as a result of her aoa? It could give her something to strive for. "
Tommaso,
Yes and no... *grin*
My daughter is happy to wear something that makes her feel pretty. She wants to dress in such a way that she feels like a princess. That is part of what the Dream is to her even though she is now 15. For her the circlet is like the little ribbony hair adornments we used to buy for her up at the Ren Faire in Shakopee when she was in grade school. She likes them because of how they make her feel about herself.
How to better explain...
*Discussing subtle differences in philosophies and approaches to things is a real tough thing to do successfully on the Internet but let me try with the comment in advance that I REALLY am not trying or intending to cause insult to anyone for pursuing awards in support of their vision of the Dream.*
My daughter's circlet would be a lot like the narrow, lengthy pennants I fly above my tent. Those pennants aren't there because I aspire to be king (or whatever level of royalty is required for such items to be officially flown). They are there because they are cool IMHO. My vision of the Dream contains fields of period pavillions topped by whispy pennants waving in the breeze. I add the pennants to my tent to increase my enjoyment of the Dream and to be closer to what my idea of the Dream is for me, but also in hopes that others will find joy or amusement or a richer experience in their Dream as well.
Would the pennants mean more to me if I had become king and earned them. Honestly, no. I do not aspire to be king. I do not have the time, resources, energy, strength, or desire to accomplish such a thing.
I do not believe my daughter has aspirations to pursue an AoA. The SCA is a hobby for us, something we share together to achieve quality father-daughter time. It is not a way of life for us like it has become for so many others. If she gets an AoA as a result of her participation at the level at which she chooses to participate, then so be it. I am sure she would be flattered and find joy in an AoA. But I am also sure she would not wear a circlet, merely to indicate her rank, if she didn't like the way it looked or if it conflicted with her vision of the Dream.
Hope that helps to explain...
Pewter -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 8:11 AMCheck out your kingdom's sumpturary rules. In Northshield, it is acceptable for someone who has not earned an AoA to wear a band that is not a complete circle--one with an open back. I don't know if other kingdoms split this particular hair so finely, but if they do it may be a way for your daughter to dress as she likes without creating a negative situation that may frustrate her and turn her off to the society.
As for the name game, while I am in the process of registering the name "Kolgrimma Eiriksdottir", I am known to one and all in my shire as "Edda", a name that I tried to register but failed. I am introduced as Edda and answer to it. With my Norse persona, it serves the purpose of the nicknames or bynames that were common in that culture. So, I see no reason you could not register the name "Solomon Pewter" (which has a nice ring to it) and then introduce yourself as and go by Pewter. People have been going by nicknames and pet names since time began, after all. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 3:09 PMEdda,
I found something that actually makes me proud to be a part of my Kingdom...
In Calontir... taken from our Laws...
MEMBERS OF THE POPULACE may wear a totally unornamented circlet of any metal with no protrusions above or below the band, and the overall height not to exceed one-half (1/2) inch.
There seems to be no requirement for the AoA. Yay! -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 8:38 AMYay! Young Miss Pewter has the law on her side! And such bands are inexpensive and easy to find. She could probably even decorate it or wrap it with ribbons to match her outfit, and that would look cool. Make sure she knows the law well enough to repeat it back to anyone who gets pissy about it, just in case. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 11:43 AMUnfortunately I am getting an error message to her page, but Mistress Cynthia Virtue had instructions on reproducing a period circlet using silk and wire that results in something that is historically authentic and will not put anybody's nosy nose out of joint. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 8:48 PMI hope this works:
web.archive.org/web/200702...irclet.html
I used the Internet Archive Wayback Machine to find thie above link. I find so many broken links looking for SCA related info, that this has been a great help. Pages will be there unless the author specifcally requests removal or has software installed that blocks the web crawlers.
This is the main page: www.archive.org/web/web.php
Good luck and Happy surfing!
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 8:38 AMPewter,
i too have had that "problem" with passing a name I had been using for a while. I suceeded (sort of) but not really. i came to the SCa by way of lookign for an outlet of more than once a year Renn fest. I had become known as Liam in those circles. While i could use that it isn't a documentable name in the SCA time period. So the search went on. I found Lieme as a surname in a german name book (we won't speculate much on what it stood for) and then needed a fist name. my sharp as a whip mind siezed upon my great grnadfather's name of Valentin we looked it up in teh same book and yes it was acceptable. So tValentin Lieme is what I submitted with my questionably simple arms. Surprisingly the arms passed and have been used locally as an example of simple arms that were passed after almost 40 years of registering arms in the SCA. The name suffered some change though. The Heralds felt that while Lieme was acceptable it wasn't period appropriate for Valentin. They looked further and found that Lyme was. Thus I became Valentin Lyme which has certain ryhming charm to it if pronouced in a certain way which I'm sure is incorrect but what the heck! Since one of my mundane hobbies is model railroading I was successful in creating arms that reflect that. Argent, a saltire sable between in fess two roundels gules. www.aeheralds.net/rolls/individual.php I liek ti and that is waht matters now isn't it? I'm told I may have trouble passing it as a badge however as then it really would look too modern & more like the sign.
Luckily I'm told where I live in Aethelmearc we have no, or darn few, sumptuary laws about who can use what. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 11:57 AMValentin, love your arms.
The art of simple and gracious seems to be lost sometimes when I look at SCA heraldry.
Where in AEthelmearc are you?
And I gotta ask: What scale?
Valizan
Former N-scale geek -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 12:22 PMShire of Blackwater Valizan
G scale as I used to live in the Buffalo area and worked part time at Niagara Hobby for almost 15 years before moving back south again.
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Unsu...
Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 3:56 PM*hem hem* Let's not forget that a certain heraldically inclined individual who shall remain nameless has already helped dig up information for "Pewter" as a surname. ;)
*poke poke poke* -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 7:26 AM"*hem hem* Let's not forget that a certain heraldically inclined individual who shall remain nameless has already helped dig up information for "Pewter" as a surname. ;)
*poke poke poke*"
My dear friend Guido (or whaever it is these days),
Yes, you were a HUGE help in finding that Pewter could be documented as a last name and I think I have mentioned that previously though now I would also mention your name as the guilty party. *grin*
As an ex-herald, do you think the idea mentioned about registering "Solomon Pewter (known as Pewter or Pewter of Deodar)" would pass with the heralds? It does seem like a nice resolution if it is truly that easy.
Pewter -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 8:38 AMAbsolutely! Though the "known as Pewter" part wouldn't need to be on the forms to register. That's just more of a cultural thing and getting people used to calling you "Pewter" over "Solomon". ;)
Take Countess Comyn...she's got the "known as Shadow" epithet and responds pretty much solely to Shadow....*nods*
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:33 PMOh, yeah, I forgot to mention, "Solomon Pewter" reads and sounds amazing! Really, a tremendous name, period, musical, and just plain cool! My advice would be register Solomon Pewter, and just introduce yourself as Pewter. No biggie. For another local example, The Shire of Standing Stones in Calontir is home to Duke Thomann Shadan Secarius, who absolutely everyone calls Shadan.
Run with it, brother! :)
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 10:07 AMNikolas, how can we not care what you think if we haven't even heard what you think yet? :)
Talk to us first, and THEN we'll not care what you think. :))))))
And withholding judgement is a good idea because one wrong word about the guy in question could get you sued. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 11:38 AMMy friend, peace be with you.
In a previous post I stated that 3rd degree banishment may have been excessive. It was premature of me to make a statement like that without having all of the facts. King Rurik has the authority to make sanctions, and I am not in a position to second guess the kink. Especially when I don't have all of the facts.
And I don't need to get sued (or banished) either :-)
Nikolas -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 12:04 PMhehe you said kink....
Its probably for the best he get a level 3, its not like he'd ever be able to earn that belt. The chiv would probably never forget he did that.
My question is, how long was he in the society before he tried this? was he just some newb at his first event or someone who got tired of trying to fit in and broke down? -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 2:38 PMAccording to the posts on AA, he had, at one time, been a man-at-arms to the knight he was impersonating.
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 8:20 PMI know the guy in question, he was in my home shire in Aethelmearc, and I know he was there over a year. He arrived claiming to be this knight from started wondering about him when I heard him tell a girl at an event " come on baby, you know you want me. I'm a knight. And you need to give me what a knight needs" I don't know of any chiv who would actually use that line. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 8:24 PM"you need to give me what a knight needs"
::shrugs, hits him in the head with a thick stick of rattan::
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 4:38 AMKarolyn,
Yeah, I too lived in that shire, for several years in the late 90's. It sucks badly enough on principle alone when something like this happens, but it's a real kick in the gut when you look at a map and go "s$#@%, this guy hurt people I KNOW."
I'm still sussing out how he made a convincing act while juggling two persona-names (or maybe it WASN'T that convincing, and explains why it only lasted about a year or so.)
Either way: kudos to Tristan and Rurik for helping to take out the trash.
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 11:41 AMWhile there may be more to it than has been posted, none of the posts imply that he didn't impersonate the knight in question. That is without question. Can you name one thing that would mitigate such behavior? I am at a loss to. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 12:01 PMI quite simply could NOT wade thru the 4 pages of psots about it on AA and will not keep up with this thread for long. Sadly it's is the ramification that is the title to this thread that really is what probably got him the L3B. ID theft for personal gain within the SCA and if it went farther then quite likely these charges will be followed up in the mundane world too? -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 1:34 PMThere is more. Especially when one takes a look at the source used for the photo of this guy in the MySpace discussion about it. Let's just say that it could be quite important to have some way of figuring out who he really is, mundanely. And, using a knight's name and identity could have caused issues mundanely for that knight since his SCA name is more readily associated with his mundane identity that the posseur's. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 1:48 PMOMG we have become so large and been around so long that the faults of our 20-21st century society have found their way into our own little world. (I guess it's always been that way but recently the magnitude and reactions have become greater). We're all just going to have to get used to dealing with all of this junk I guess. (At least we haven't had a murder at Pennsic yet ala the novel "Knight Fall".) -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 7:34 PMAccording to the AA posts, he was not just impersonating his former Knight at Pennsic. "Allegedly" this churl was used his stolen title to gain the position of Knights Marshal for his local group, and he had taken 3 squires 3 this boy is in sore need of a "wood shampoo" if anybody ever was.
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 9:40 PM"Can you name one thing that would mitigate such behavior?"
Yeah. A certain movie. ;-)
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 6:33 AMClearly this guy is lacking in social graces, even among the island of misfit toys that is the SCA. Clearly he should at least get the standard slap on the wrist for not playing well with others.
Lifetime banishment is for criminal activities and actions that open up the SCA to litigation. For example: If he actually registered under the mundane name of the impersonated knight, and then got in with a fake ID. That could be used as an alibi for a person's whereabouts in court, which could be a big problem if the real knight committed a crime and then got away with it because "he was at Pennsic." I can see the SCA wanting to dodge that. (and what else is he doing with a fake assumed identity?)
On the other hand, if he registered with his own name, then wandered around lying about who he was, it would be a stretch to see how this would open up the SCA to possible litigation. (and no, lying to someone about yourself while not under oath is not a crime, otherwise we should banish every cheating spouse, etc.) I can see how his damaged social skills would frustrate or anger people, but really, his reputation will now catch up with him wherever he goes. He'll never be a peer of any kind after that.
I only have a problem with the lifetime banishment. Serial killers, pedophiles, and rapists, along with people who embezzle chunks of money from the SCA I have no problem with banishing. Compulsive liars and social misfits just need to be kept out of office and away from titles where they advise people, and if they annoy the local royal-of-the-day, they should be banished from their presence.
Maybe I just thought that one of the virtues that peerage should aspire to was a degree of grace. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 6:47 AMAccording to the AA posts this guy stole the name and rank of another person, used that rank to become a group officer, their KM not the MOAS or Chronicler, this guy was overseeing martial activities w/o proper warrants, and as if that were not enough he is also a convicted sex offender. There is an obvious pattern of bad decision making on this persons part, he did potentially (thankfully not actually) open the SCA litigation. What if some one he inspected and passed got seriously hurt, yeah I know we all sign a waiver, but with the position he stole there is implied trust, which he violated in very real ways. So, here we have 1) a convicted sex offender 2) who knowingly and willfully steals the identity of someone he knows (who he also knows is inactive) 3) and who then puts himself in a position of trust within our organization. I don't see how this could have anything but an unhappy ending. We are better off without him and ANY of his ilk. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 8:41 AMWhile I certainly don't want him working with kids, or hanging around me or mine just in case, do we screen for sex offenders in the SCA in general? I have an uncle who was biking on a trail and stepped off a ways to pee on a tree. He's now a convicted sex offender, and lost his teaching job and everything he had. Just sayin'
While his martial activities may have opened up the SCA to liability, I remember when the liability of underage drinking precipitated carding at parties at Pennsic. Did those who made this a necessity get banished for life for bringing this liability upon the SCA?
Beyond that he is a liar, like so many others. A ballsy, stupid liar, but still just a liar, and never under legal oath by the sound of it.
I'm not saying I condone his antisocial behavior, and I have no investment in the decision either way. I'm just trying to round out the issue with perspective.
Now he'll never get the titles and recognition he wanted so desperately. How is taking away his birthday too an equitable and just punishment for the scope of his "crime?" (unless, of course, we're making an example of him) -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:05 AMSome peoples actions require that they be made an example of, if a person chooses to act in those ways then they should expect to be exemplified. This person was obviously knew the structure of the sub-culture he was participating in, and was aware there would be consequences when he was found out. I have no pity or sympathy for him at all. No change that I have no sympathy for him but I do pity him for he is truly pathetic and pitiable. Such a base wretch deserves pity.
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 11:42 AMGrim said "do we screen for sex offenders in the SCA in general? "
Not currently but VERY soon we will be. How the heck did that come up though? What does it have to do with the issue at hand and why in the world was it brought up? It has NOTHING to do with the circumstances at hand that I can see. Although it potentially shows more of the character of the person in question it doesn't have much to do with what happened at Pennsic. Past or present. It could potentially affect the future though. Especially with so many postings about it on no less than 2 forums now. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 12:20 PMI, for one, am not bothered by the prospect of weeding out any convicted sex offenders. I know it won't eliminate all of the perpetrators lurking in our midst, but it's a start. If the guy is a convicted sex offender, we don't need him around at all, and I think he should be banished for life just on that issue alone. We don't need that in our society, but that's not the issue here.
When I first heard about this incident, I was unsure if an L3 banishment was appropriate. Then I thought about how I would feel if it had been someone posing as a Master Mason (which I am) or a member of my fraternity, or pretending to be anything else that I hold sacred. This caused me to reconsider my position. I think King Rurik handled the situation exactly as he should have, and with a good dose of humiliation for the phoney knight thrown in for good measure.
I think the point here should be that any moron can walk around Pennsic with a white belt. A white belt doesn't make someone a knight any more than a crown makes you a king. They are symbols of rank and achievement, and are useful only for letting everyone else know who you are. Beyond that, a white belt is just a white piece of leather that anyone can make or buy. Anyone who illegitimately displays symbols of authority, for whatever reason, is worthy only of contempt and scorn and should be expelled as soon as they are discovered. Anyone involved with the SCA for more than two minutes knows what a white belt signifies, and the hard work involved in earning one. Impersonating a peer should result in the severest sanction possible. Mr. Weaver is now free to wear a white belt wherever he likes, as long as it is not an SCA event. Fortunately, in mundania wearing a white belt just makes you a poor dresser, and nothing more.
Respectfully submitted,
Nikolas Hossvalder -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 6:03 AMunfortuently a sex offender is a sex offender, be them monster or just some guy who was peeing on a tree in the woods. There is no distinction between the two as far as the law states, do we just block them all or do we dig deeper? We've all done stupid stuff in our younger days, should that prevent us from attending pennsic just cause we got slapped with the sex offender tag even though we're not a danger?
There is a case of a guy who gets cut off in traffic, so he moons the guy who cut him off. Hes now a sex offender. Should he be banned from pennsic? -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Wed, August 22, 2007 - 6:31 AM
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:10 AMWe are better off without him and ANY of his ilk.
Just wanted to comment on this separately. I've seen a knight in a battle dropped to his knees by a blow to the head. (after calling all previous good shots light) I then watched him stagger up, while yelling "light" and lunge and hit his opponent, who was then declared dead. (the fighter did not take that well, needless to say, and was chastised later for yelling at the knight) If we are going to start filtering out people we'd be better off without, why not start with the more public and influential end of our membership? I have to say, I was so ashamed that the knight was from my kingdom, that I've changed my perspective on the implied honorability of rising through the ranks.
(and no, looking at my authorization date won't help you narrow down who it was, I've let my fighter's card lapse a couple of times) -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:42 AMThe situation you witnessed was unfortunate, but unless you were one of the two involved in it you really do not know what happened, "the ONLY person who can call a blow is the person receiving it" this is what I was taught when I started fighting. I still believe that giving my opponent the benefit of the doubt is essential to the honor based game we play. If a person chooses to debase themselves by acting dishonorably, then they will show their quality and gain the infamy they deserve. I am not saying that being a KSCA automatically makes you a super swell guy who never ever makes mistakes (though I would hazard the mistakes a KSCA makes are looked at and commented on), but I do think that every KSCA deserves respect for having attained something that is difficult to achieve and worthy of respect. What they do with that respect is completely up to them and their actions. And yes I do believe that The Peers of our realm should be held to a higher standard. I also believe that they are just because you do not see the chastisement or the rebuke, does not mean that it do0esn't happen. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 2:27 PMThe situation you witnessed was unfortunate, but unless you were one of the two involved in it you really do not know what happened, "the ONLY person who can call a blow is the person receiving it"
Actually, I watched and it was pretty clear. I saw a umber of hits that sure looked good, but were called light. Fair enough, the blows became progressively harder. Then one hit actually physically knocked him down, and he got up and called it light. I don't care who you are, or how hard you like to calibrate. you are just as guilty of making the game a liability as that fake liar knight if that's how you want to play.
Unfortunately, this knight had gained fame rather than infamy. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 11:25 AMI believe that a level III would be upheld. As stated earlier, it appears this dude impersonated an SCA officer in a capacity (marshalling) that could have had mundane ramifications, had someone been injured while this dude was in charge.
I'm not so sure about the sex offender part, that may have been tacked on for sensationalism.
Siobhan -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 12:55 PMSensational and True:
www.wvstatepolice.com/sexoff/..._r06.cfm -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 4:52 PMNot JUST a Sex Offender, but a Pedophile. He should not have been at events anyway. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 8:19 PMHey, "lewd and lascivious act in front of a minor" literally can be just getting caught peeing in the great outdoors by a kid. heck, having a family vehicle stop at what amounts to the local 'lookout/makeout point' and one of the kids peeking into the windows of the car of an amorous couple can lead to "lewd and lascivious act in front of a minor" charges too. (Happened to a friend of mine - the family involved were scouting the area with an eye to relocating and decided to investigate a dead end road on a hill overlooking the city.)
I wish people (and yes, I do mean the general population) would understand that not ALL sex offender acts are created equal, even though they are reported that way on 'paper'. Heck, in my area, you can be brought up on those same charges for sunbathing topless in your backyard if the neighbor's kid finds a way to look over the 8ft privacy fence. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 10:06 AMDulcinea said "Hey, "lewd and lascivious act in front of a minor" literally can be just getting caught peeing in the great outdoors by a kid."
I am from Texas and am a retired peace officer. Texas Law has a stipulation that there must be sexual gratification for one party, this is to take into account for the, when you gotta go, you gotta go cases. Maybe Florida where this happened and most states do not have this clause. And of course being a peace officer I am suspect of anyone who is a sex offender, I have worked too many cases not to.
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 6:02 PMIf this individual is a registered sex offender, he has not only broken laws of chivalry (not that he seems to have had any in the first place) within the SCA by engaging in ID theft, but he may have also broken mundane law by being at an event where children under the age of 18 years frequented. IMHO, depending on the "class" of his offense, wouldn't he have been restricted from contact with children?
I've been following this thread since it first appeared but have remained silent. No, I do not know this individual, nor do I ever care to. At first I was just angry about his commiting ID theft. Now I feel like I'm steaming mad. It's bad enough every single one of us risk this kind of invasion into our mundane lives on a daily basis. And yes, while our SCA personas may not be considered "real" by mundane authorities and not "protected" by mundane laws, they ARE real within the SCA and deserve the highest level of protection. And yes, I think he should have received the harshest punishment the SCA has and I am glad he has.
I know about ID theft. My father has been a victim. My sister has been a victim. My own husband's bank card was stolen and money was withdrawn fraudulently from our bank account. Thankfully after a bank investigation, our money was recovered. And thankfully, my father and sister have recovered their losses as well. Is ID theft serious?? YES!
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 11:44 AMI've met that f@ckin guy!
I seen him at aethelmearc academy. He was offerin his 2 cents in a melee class that Sir Finn and Sir Malcom were teaching.
I remember he was a ridiculous rhino-hide and an expert on freakin everything. Sir Tristan (who regularly attends our fighter practice) told us at the baccinalia party at pennic that padashar was impersonating a knight and was drummed out in the worst manner possible. I guess our friend threw his (well..someone's) belt and chain on the ground and acted like he was gonna start something. Kinda wish he would've, Aethelmearc's knights and dukes would have mopped the floor with that clown.
Tristan, If you're readin this props for lookin out.
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 12:20 PMI have a few questions about this...
The original report names this guy both mundanely and as "Padashar" while the knight he was impersonating has a different name. Was he going around with a double personality? Sometimes he's Padashar and sometimes he's using this knight's name? Or was it "I used to be called X but now I go by Y"? Or did he completely give up the older SCA name (Padashar) in favor of taking the knight's name and the author was using the older one for convenience?
Secondly, if he was using this knights actual name, isn't he in some way using the knight's mundane name? The SCA name should be registered for a particular person's mundane name and then that person has exclusive right to use that name, correct? If he was introduced as this knight and someone then looked up the mundane name, that could have criminal implications- as in real world identity theft.
Don't mind me, I'm just confused! -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 1:49 PMI don't think there was anything criminal here. A civil matter maybe if the person beeing impersonated suffered somekind of financial damages. I don't even think you can call it slander or libel unless he was trying to make the real person look bad by pretending to be him.
According to the non-profit Identity Theft Resource Center, identity theft is "sub-divided into four categories: Financial Identity Theft (using another's name and SSN to obtain goods and services), Criminal Identity Theft (posing as another when apprehended for a crime), Identity Cloning (using another's information to assume his or her identity in daily life) and Business/Commercial Identity Theft (using another's business name to obtain credit)."
In the USA, until 2003, dealing with consumer crimes involving legally attributed personal identifiers was the jurisdictional responsibility of the local and state authorities. Identification documents are a different story, addressed in Title 18 > Part I > Chapter 47 s.1028 of the U.S. Code. The unlawful use of identification documents is historically a federal offence. In response to the consumer issue of "identity theft", the U.S. Congress passed the Identity Theft and Assumption Deterrence Act (2003) amending Title 18 > Part I > Chapter 47, s. 1028 to include the unlawful use of a "means of identification" [s,1028 (d)(7)] making it a federal crime alongside identification documents. The title of s.1028 is, "Fraud related to activity in connection with identification documents, authentication features, and information". The Act also provides the Federal Trade Commission with authority to track the number of incidents and the dollar value of losses. There figures relate mainly to consumer financial crimes and not the broader range of all identification-based crimes.[8] Punishments for the unlawful use of a "means of identification" were strengthened in s.1028a, allowing for a consecutive sentence under specific conditions of a felony violation defined in s. 1028c.
If used to commit another crime in the commission of identity theft in the United States (if charged federally) include:
Class B Felony: 6-20 years in Jail and a fine up to $10,000
Class C Felony: 2-8 years in Jail and a fine up to $10,000
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 7:34 AMOn the subject of conflicting heraldry:
My houshold (Kumpania Painted Wheel) has a red wheel, with yellow flowers on it.
Another Rromany group, (I'm pretty sure it's the Corvo Rom) have a red flaming Catherine Wheel. (both ours and theirs helped to a non-conflicting compromise by Achbar...thanks, Achbar!)
Yet another group of Roms, Nightshade Faire, have a purple wheel.
You can have similar heraldry, as long as it conflicts on a required number of differences. -
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Re: SCAdian ID Theft
Wed, September 5, 2007 - 11:12 PMA Catherine Wheel, eh? One of them with spikes jutting out... i've seen something like it...
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