out of the Pennsic loop

topic posted Fri, June 20, 2008 - 1:28 PM by  hunter
So, through the grapevine I hear a few things. It has been years since I have been to a SCA Event (due to moving and life events), but still have many friends in SCA and we talk about happenings. One thing that has come to my attention, which I was unaware of (an apologies for being out of the loop), is the state of the chiurgeons at Pennsic. Doing some investigations into the matter I notice there is a new EMS organization controlling the point and has for at least a few years. Digging deeper I notice the Pennsic Budget. Last year $49,200.00 was spent on EMS. Now if we dig further, I notice that we used to pay approximately $19,000-$20,000 (during pennsic 34) for the same services and were like that for many years, so I am told. We are dealing with a $29,000 increase in the matter of a few years. I find it interesting.
posted by:
hunter
Ohio
  • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

    Fri, June 20, 2008 - 1:55 PM
    think a little Hunter.

    Pennsic is now technically ( as far as atate and county are concerned) a small town for the duration of the event....given the vast age range represented there and the broad array of medical issues that age spread of populace encompasses is it really al lthat much to think there was going to at some point have to be a somewhat hefty money hit taken to account for the potential medical needs such an extensive populace places on the event? Not that big a stretch of the imagination when its all said and done
    • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

      Sat, June 21, 2008 - 8:32 AM
      chieurgons was a liability risak waiting to be actualized once Pennsic got so large. too many people requesting medical supplies for types of medical emergencies they should NOT have been attempting to treat. there were also too many differing levels of medical accreditation being put in play and there needed to be a uniform standard so that if anything were to go wrong the victim could not say it was the SCA's fault for not making sure that all chieurgeons were of "X" (insert medical level of choice) level of qualification. this way it's EMS's responsability to asses care needs and impliment them and they are completely recognized by the state of PA.
  • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

    Sat, June 21, 2008 - 6:25 AM
    In the past the EMS was there for a backup for the chiurgeons. there is no more chiurgeons point, the chiurgeons you see are eather ems, in garb, or people who are doing it on there own as the sca can't offer this service any more.
    • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

      Mon, June 23, 2008 - 5:48 AM
      In the past the EMS was there for a backup for the chiurgeons. there is no more chiurgeons point, the chiurgeons you see are eather ems, in garb, or people who are doing it on there own as the sca can't offer this service any more. "

      Not that I'm qualified to comment as someone who is inChiurgeons or knows chiurgens (i do know a few) but there ARE Ciurgenons at EMS point last year at Pennsic. We had to visit them once with my 3 year old daughter who got in a fight with her older sister over one of those cheap bamboo fans. By the wy di you know the split rings that hold them together and have a tassle on them are sharp as any kitchen knife? Clearly my wife nor I did! Anyhow she got a pretty nasty slice on one of her fingers and while we could gt it cleaned up and the bleeding stopped as soon as we tried to bandage it it would start bleeding again. So up the block we went to see what they would do. One of our neighbors who was/is a chiurgeon was volunteering there and checked us in. She took us right back to EMS and then came and took care of the paperwork. Fianlly they got the bleeding to stop long enough to get some Superglue on the cut which lasted long enough for a few days to heal up. So while EMS as become primary they do still sue the chiurgeons there too.
      • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

        Tue, June 24, 2008 - 5:51 PM
        right the chiurgeons are there as a level 1 support, basic first aid, but the EMS is there for the rest. Frankily i'm happy they're there, i really don't want someone whos skills i'm unsure of looking at me.
        • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

          Wed, June 25, 2008 - 4:22 AM
          I keep hearing HORROR stories about why they made such a big change DURING war. Can anyone here say, one way or the other, what caused such an unplanned change, so suddenly? I won't spread rumors but maybe there is someone here who actually knows what happened.
          • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

            Wed, June 25, 2008 - 11:49 AM
            it was I am pretty certain, the fact that there is no consistent base line standard for qualification....you could have it staffed by someone who was only CPR trained and had been good a patching up cuts on a simple level one shift....and then an ER tech who knew how to do considerably more another shift....but too much inconsistency in between. Coupled with the fact that PA has differnet licensing/accreditation standards than other states and vice versa so there is no gaurentee that you wouldn't be slapped with a medical malpractice suit if you treated someone and your license was not compliant with PA state regulations...which would then potentially create grounds for the SCA Inc to be sued for allowing you under the auspices of chieurgeons to treat someone who then went on to get worse....this way the chieurgeons are there to treat minor cuts and abbraisons, hydrate those at risk of dehydration and heat stroke, but they can pass off the serious issues that could easily bring liability into play if mis-diagnosed/handled to the EMS team who ARE PA Medical License compliant and thus remove the burden of legal liability from the SCA Inc.
            • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

              Wed, June 25, 2008 - 11:46 PM
              As a level 1 trauma nurse I thought I would chime in on this issue. First the legal issues are that as a nurse i can NOT practice in PA unless i get a license there so even though I am certified to work traumas/ cardiac and such i am NOT legally allowed to in PA as either work or volunteer. second the people I have talked to over the years in the seem to feel that with in the SCA they are allowed to do what ever they want if they are high enough in the SCA ranks. I even had one (who told me they were first aid certified) say that I as a trauma nurse ,trained to work in a mobil disaster/ mascal trauma situations was NOT qualified enough to work at point because I was NOT high enough in the SCA ranks. That said I think it is a good idea to have PA certified and licensed personel dealing with any and all medical issues. That way every one knows exactly what level of care they will be recieving. I know i am just restating what Joel said but it is true especially if I want to KEEP my current icensure.
              • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                Thu, June 26, 2008 - 3:50 AM
                I was going volunteer when I keep my WFR certification and even had my bases covered with a set of Red Cross certs including CPR/AED for the Professional Rescuer and Emergency Response. I was told that I was not qualified because I did not have the Red Cross Basic First Aid cert.

                I put all my cards back in my pouch and walked away laughing. Most of us decided it was better to not go to the point and if it was bad enough that our camp could not handle it, go straight to the hospital.

                So, I understand why they changed the setup and have professional EMT staffing.
                • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                  Thu, June 26, 2008 - 7:39 AM
                  Man the rumor I heard was something about the board wanting kickbacks so as to rule the SCA through nano-implants, and since nano-tech is costly, its why the price went up. Umm how about the board owns the EMS company, I like that rumor too. Considering EMS is a seller's market at that point. We need to have it, as the insurance, and legal types require it. They get to hit us for what they want. Just make sure to get your money's worth. Cut yourself, and go up to them and make them bandage you. Of course this will raise the cost for next year since supply usage went up. I say to hell with EMS, lets do without. I want my 4 dollars back. I could almost buy a steak sandwich with my savings.
  • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

    Thu, June 26, 2008 - 12:56 PM
    To imply that I am not thinking is ignorant. The point is, the previous ems service was paid 20,000 for the same service. They were not back up to the first aid people who were there. They also provided doctors free of charge to Pennsic along with nurses from local hospitals, from what I hear there aren't any nurses volunteering their time there. Now, since I am not thinking as per other comments, the attendance of Pennsic has not grown significantly over the past few years since the "changing of the guard." Maybe the real question is, why is no one ever questioning spending and practices of those 'royals' in charge of this event? The entire thing seems fishy to me that costs haven't increased that much over a few years, even with gas prices increasing.
    • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

      Thu, June 26, 2008 - 1:24 PM
      first of all implying that you are not thinking is far from ignorant, since your question was ostensibly about Chieurgeons and in fact it is a thinly veiled jibe at the BOD on money spending practices. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and responded to the quasi stated intent trying to offer what I was told of about the switch over to EMS. Clearly you are not concerned with the medical aspects and the liability issues...you are wanting to snipe over finances.

      Second, for someone who claims to be "out of the loop" you are certainly rather conversant with the terms and fees of contracts with previous medical services which leads me to think that you are either a disgruntled mid level SCA functionary ( hiding behind a profile that has no picture and no friends and was hastily thrown together just before Pennsic so you can stir up trouble for someone in particular or just the establishment in general.....or that you are friends with someone who fits those criteria and are taking up their pet cause.

      Bugging the readership of a list like this is both immature and irresponsible since you are not presenting them all the facts and yet asking them to comment on ( and are actually fishing for a specific disgruntled tone of response in the way you present your theory) something for which many are :

      A) not qualified to comment on owing to a lack of medical knowledge as well as a lack of understanding of licensing practices and insurance liability

      B)Are going to be incapable of formulating an actual well informed opinion because you are presenting the matter in a skewed light so that you can direct the flow of the responses toward a negative reactionary posture on the foundation of very little actual valid information

      Where are you getting your figures from that you are quoting as far as amounts paid? And are you authorized to be speaking openly about things like that?

      Were you part of the BOD meetings at which changes in the medical staffing of Pennsic were discussed/decided on, and thus capable of offering a valid informed opinion...or are you sniping based on something you heard from someone who heard it from someone who might actually have been present but hte information has now been tainted several times over by the viewpoint of the re-teller?

      When you say you have been "out of the loop" ( aside from the implied contradiction that you partial divulging of payments and services reveals) how long have you been out of the loop? State, local, or Insurance requirements may have changed in the intervening time that you are unaware of and thus are making wild accusations without foundation.

      The fact that the SCA is currently having to defend itself against two liability law suits has probably raised awareness of potential areas we need to be more mindful of and I would suspect we are likly to see a number of alterations to "standard opperating procedure" in the coming years. We have to accept that our game has been amazingly cheep on average and the costs have been based on an outdate mode of opperation that really doesn't address the growth in overall size of the SCA and the mundane concerns such growth necessitates.

      So again I say...THIINK before you type Hunter.......its rather back handed of you to try stirring up this trouble and then complain when you don't get the response you are looking for despite having been manipulative in the way you present your case.
      • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

        Thu, June 26, 2008 - 6:34 PM
        Joel the Mighty Troll Hunter! :-)
        • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

          Thu, June 26, 2008 - 7:59 PM
          I must again agree wtih JOel on this matter. From a medical point (with a brother in law who practices medical mal practice law) It is truly best for the SCA and Pennsic to have the EMS present and working under thier expertiese. (just because some one is a nurse does NOT make them qualified to do front line trauma/ injury/ illness) and a basic first aid person truly differ between sun stroke/ sun poisining/ hyper and or hypoglycemia?? second as to the cost, to the ems the figure for a WHOLE 2 weeks is below reasonable (I do know what they make a shift so they are NOT charging alot even with the truck present) and where else can you still get a 2 week vcation for UNDER 300$ per person. It sounds like someone has a bone to pick, but is definatly barking up the wrong tree. all you need is 1 hyperglycemis coma vs sun stroke misdiagnosis to really ruin our fun. Lets thank the EMS personel for being there AND the bod or whoever decided that something as large as PEnnSIc deserved the medical coverage it is now getting.
      • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

        Fri, June 27, 2008 - 3:07 AM
        I would also like to add, the EMS serves the county where Pensic is held and that area has seen growth that has caused some local inflation and a larger population for the EMS services which would also drive up cost. There are many factors besides legal to consider in the cost evaluation of the EMS services.

        Pennsic is still affordable and I would say down right cheep as far as 2 weeks of campling goes on a maintained site. I have also never heard that Pennsic was a money loosing event for the SCA. Not that I would have any information on such things.

        So, if the cost are covered and the safty of the people is the goal and there is no great cost increase to the people attending, what is the problem?
      • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

        Fri, June 27, 2008 - 5:51 AM
        WOW!!! How did you know I was going to say that??!?!?
        • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

          Fri, June 27, 2008 - 5:53 AM
          Joel has ESP!!!
          • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

            Fri, June 27, 2008 - 8:53 AM
            Here is a cross post from the SCA-Chirurgeon list:
            Unto the populace of the Known World, the attendees of Pennsic War
            and
            the Chirurgeons who serve both, does Lady Elizabeth Reed, Chirurgeon
            in
            Charge of Pennsic 37, send greetings.

            Pennsic comes upon us with speed and certainty, and to better
            plan
            for this event I would like to make known a few changes that will be
            in
            place this year and the reasoning behind them.

            After observing the difficulties of providing the high quality of

            service on the battlefield that the populace expects from the
            Chirurgeons and that we have come to expect from ourselves, please be

            aware that I have decided that there will be no organized Pennsic
            Chirurgeonate presence on the battlefield this year. I initiated
            this
            policy change; it was not handed down to us in any way. I firmly
            believe in this.
            Last year I observed that there were problems in the delivery of
            first aid services on the battlefield due to the way that the
            Chirurgeon/Northwest EMS teams worked together. Although the new
            system
            worked well in First Aid Point, it was not really well suited to the
            faster pace of service required in the middle of battle. My feeling
            is
            that it is better to provide no service then bad service, so this
            year
            we are stepping back and allowing NWEMS to handle the field alone.
            Chirurgeons are welcome to work as Chirurgeons at large,
            and
            are encouraged to work with their local groups or households. Such
            Chirurgeons are expected to follow the policies of the Chirurgeons
            handbook and should drop off any paperwork at First Aid Point at
            their
            earliest convenience. Chirurgeons are also encouraged to serve on the

            battlefield in other capacities including as marshals if they are
            warranted in that capacity.

            As usual First Aid Point will be open 24 hours a day, however the

            Chirurgeonate at Pennsic will not operate from 12 midnight until 8
            am.
            The last three Pennsic CiCs have proposed this change, and I am
            choosing to implement it this year. The reason for this change is
            that
            we do not serve a significant number of people at night given the
            amount
            of effort we put into staffing those shifts. Overnight an Operations

            Deputy will be on duty to handle administrative needs or
            interdepartmental issues. NWEMS will be active 24 hours a day to
            provide any care needed during the night hours.

            Other changes will be minor, but will include a more robust "help

            yourself" offering at the front of First Aid Point for those who want
            to
            DIY. We will also be moving our meeting area under the permanent
            roof,
            to make it a more convenient and integrated part of First Aid Point.

            Lastly, we regret that we will no be able to offer showers to
            volunteers this year. As was the case last year, use of the shower
            trailer will be limited, due to among other things the rising cost of

            propane. We are aware that the Chirurgeonate and the other Pennsic
            departments run completely on volunteer labor, and we are very
            appreciative of the work. I would be very interested in any
            additional
            suggestions for ways we can honor our volunteers.

            I want to encourage everyone to come and give working at the
            Pennsic
            Chirurgeonate another chance. The theme for this Pennsic is
            rebuilding. I hope you will look at it as an opportunity to create a

            foundation for a better Pennsic Chirurgeonate in years to come. I,
            and
            the senior staff at Pennsic, fully and strongly believe that we (the
            Chirurgeons and those who volunteer in a non-medical capacity) have a

            place in the first aid needs of Pennsic. Let us continue do our jobs

            with the professionalism I have come to expect from the Chirurgeonate.

            I would like to thank in advance all those who come out and help us
            make this year's Pennsic Chirurgeonate even better than last.
            • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

              Fri, June 27, 2008 - 3:01 PM
              That was well put but I predict people will still be ticked.
              • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                Fri, June 27, 2008 - 5:04 PM
                Now lets break down some numbers.
                17 days 24 hours at 49K 120 per hour.
                Hell let's shorten it, and say it is 150 per hour as the hourly quote.
                Let's start with bottom of the barrel for certs and pay. 8.50 per person per hour.
                That is assuming these guys are EMTs not paramedics. Paramedics will get a couple dollars more.
                How many are on shift, and we also have a wagon there. When you look at 8.50 per hour add about 120% more for taxes, and insurance.
                How many overtime hours are we paying for? We short them at least two, sometimes more bodies.
                Now we are looking at 30 Plus dollars per hour for the cheapest body, plus the meat wagon.
                You know what. The nice folks I have been renting tents from for the past 7 years, had the balls to tell me that this was the last year, that I could get this insane cheap price I was getting. He wants to increase the price by 25% for next year, How dare he have an increase. Just because the minimum wage went up, gas is 4 bucks a gallon, business taxes, and insurance went up. Damn it. He still will be cheaper then the rest next year. It has been 4 years since a price increase, and it is due.
                Ok so I wonder how much is an EMS team with a meat wagon worth per hour?
                Well if they save someones life, its worth the three and half dollars it cost me. That works out to just about one penny per hour.
                Not a bad thing, since it is less then half of the cost per hour then I pay on my property taxes back home for having one that is 2 miles away from me.
                Enough of me being serious.... Back to the conspiracy theories. How's this... The extra money is paying for secret parties for the BOD, and all the Royals, at a secret island location which the SCA secretly owns. They all hop aboard the SCA secret Leer jet, and fly down once a money for sun, and fun, and expensive booze, and hookers.
                • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                  Fri, June 27, 2008 - 7:25 PM
                  I am not sure the money is going to be the issue. It's kinda like (and I don't feel this way myself....but) getting stunt men to do the fighting. It's an activity that SCAdians did in the past, and will not be doing in the future. It will now be done by professionals. That has got to bother some people.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                    Fri, June 27, 2008 - 8:20 PM
                    Seriously, anyone who is going to be "bothered" by the idea that his or her injury/stroke/heart attack will be treated by professional emergency medical personnel rather than volunteers who may or may not have the necessary training/capabilities/access to proper supplies has way bigger problems than mere disgruntlement with changes to the Society.

                    Just my $.02, you understand.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                    Mon, June 30, 2008 - 4:46 AM
                    I'll take the pros over anyone who would have a problem with leaving it to the pros. That shows a pompous and self serving attitude that is not needed in an emergence situation. Not someone I would want treating me.
            • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

              Mon, June 30, 2008 - 7:33 AM
              The problem most people I have talked to have with this is not a pompous, "It's us or them..." thing, it is the simple fact that there are how manny fighters on the feld at a time? I have hurd it said to be 3000+ but have never counted them my self.
              How manny emt/paramdics? 15+2 boxes?
              What other contact sport has that kind of raito? what would the NFL be like if they only had one person to treat both teams? that would still be a better ratio than what we are getting with the ems.
              It is not the EMS falt as they are good people. (FAR FAR BETTER THAN THE A HOLES AT THE HOSPITAL!!!!! 'nother story)
              PA law sucks, It is not just buying beer, it is the 'hole' commonwelth.
              Most of the Chirurgeons are well traind to take cair of the same problems that the ems are, and in most cases more acotumed to the needs of the person they are treeting.
              who would you rather cut the strap on your kelm to get you out, the ems who at beat has cut the nylon strap on a motercycle helmet, of a the chirurgeon who helped strap you in in the first place?
              • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                Mon, June 30, 2008 - 9:05 AM
                "Most of the Chirurgeons are well traind to take cair of the same problems that the ems are, and in most cases more acotumed to the needs of the person they are treeting.
                who would you rather cut the strap on your kelm to get you out, the ems who at beat has cut the nylon strap on a motercycle helmet, of a the chirurgeon who helped strap you in in the first place? "

                Sort of like having Ski Patrol at the Ski areas instead of one EMS person and waiting for teh ambulances to show up. It comes down to the "mobile natiure" of the SCA and the fact that it spans so much on so little. So much area and so amny people and so many countries all havign different LEGAL requirements that change year to year and all of them are not compatible with each oher all the time. Other groups DO take care of this issue. Not all of them well.
              • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                Mon, June 30, 2008 - 9:07 AM
                "who would you rather cut the strap on your kelm to get you out, the ems who at beat has cut the nylon strap on a motercycle helmet, of a the chirurgeon who helped strap you in in the first place? "

                Neither, if I can not get it off myself or do not have the ability to instruct someone in removing it then it should stay on until I get to the hospital. Just like in football you do not remove the helmet until you can determine it is not a neck injury and/or only after the neck can be safely stableized. That would be hard to do with my helm. And it is a snug fit.

                Just saying.

                For all the people on the Pennsic field there are statisticly few injuries that are serious.

                I have no problem with the Chirurgeons if they had a standard of training and certification required for all. And something more than Red Cross first aid and CPR.
                • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                  Mon, June 30, 2008 - 9:36 AM
                  and ultimately this whole issue has less to do with the actual situations that may take place at Pennsic....because in all honesty I am sure that the many people who graciously donated their time and efforts to Chieurgeouns were capable fo dealing with the battle field injuries o nthe whole quite well.........what this is all really more about I suspect...is what comes after the initial treatment by a chiurgeon.......first off the individual's medical insurance may not then pay for subsequent treatment because the initial person treating them was not a licensed practitioner in the state they were treated in, if somethign were to go wrong with how the initial treatment on site were adminstered The SCA could face fines from the State, as well as a damages law suit from the individual....and unless the SCA wants to start a whole new office devoted to nothing but medical issues, passing this along to the states EMS in question is a much more efficient sollution.

                  And given the hue and outcry over the addition of background checks for those dealing with children ( ultimately a minor inconvenience, and really only one of concern for those not likly to pass it who arguably should not be dealing with children in the first place!) Can you imagine the deafening din of people whining and complaining if a huge beauracracy were created to sift through who is or is not of X__________ predetermined level of medical accreditation to pass muster in all states, clear the language of the legal paperwork said individuals would have to sign/ have signed/notorized to insure the SCA is in compliance, and here's the kicker....can you even begin to imagine the costs such a new office with all its functionaries necessary to keep on top of that ungodly amount of paperwork would incur and thus be passed on to you, the modest event goer who would then have to pay in excess of $50 per person to get in the gate for a Kingdom event and north of $300 for Pennsic just to cover all the added expenses such a hugh paperwork mill would cost?

                  I think it far saner and way more efficient to have the EMS professionals handle this
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                    Mon, June 30, 2008 - 4:56 PM
                    So here is the question. What are the good Samaritan laws of good ole PA?
                    That is where the legal sticky comes into play. Some states say it is fine as volunteers, others say if it is organized then you have recourse against anyone who treats you. Some say if you have a license, then you are at risk. The funny thing is I know we got a jillion lawyers in the SCA, and none of them are dumb enough to volunteer an opinion. That is all really an aside to Mr. Hunters homework assignment. Finding out what a EMS service costs per hour to rent. The funny thing is if I owned an EMS service I would charge as much as I could get away with.
                    Money is money. Sure I will make some from ambulance runs from Coopers, but some will be slow to pay the damn uninsured idiots.
                    So I will be glad to put our boys and meat wagon there, you just had better pay me. Even if I am local government. Helps pay for the police calls, and all the other stuff involved with a big event.
                    • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                      Tue, July 1, 2008 - 12:40 AM
                      good samaritan laws are usually precluded on the supposition that there are no competent licensed medical professionals on hand to do the job......with EMS present thats pretty much null and voided legally speaking and would thus run the risk of putting the "good samaritan" in jeopardy of legal recourse against him/her.
                    • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                      Tue, July 1, 2008 - 3:48 AM
                      The good Samaritan Laws are always trickey. An organised event is required to have an emergency medical presence that can be volenteer but depending on the State and County will have to have any number of certifications. If that presence is availiable and the injury is not at the moment life threatening than you should get qualified help. Failure to do so and to try and treat someone yourself as a good Samaritan is opening yourself for a law suit. If it is life threatening than you can take action like move the victum from danger, stop bleeding and perform CPR. Beyond that unless you have advanced training certifications you are open to law suit. PA takes the stance find help and only act if it must be done to save the life of the victum. Maryland and Virginia have a more act now and see what happens kind of approch.

                      Even with good samaritan laws you can be hit with a law suit and loose in most states even if your actions saved the persons life. That is why there are companies that sell good samaritan insurance and why the Wilderness Medicine Institute and Red Cross have such insurance for people that have their certifications.
                      • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                        Tue, July 1, 2008 - 5:07 AM
                        Michigan has pretty good ones protecting folks, but I still let all my certifications lapse. I had a ton of em. I know a number of doctors, and nurses who refuse to volunteer, just because of the possibility of a suit. Ahh all the legal shit slowly adding up to us doing less for each other. I rather liked the water bearing now becoming absolutely unofficial. No SCA organized water bearing, because someone thought of food service laws. That is bloody awesome. That was one where I went what the...... hmm..... well if you really want to stretch things in the right states....... Some asshole somewhere needs a thump on the head with brick for that one. That we might serving water that from the source is not safe is funny. Of course if ever happened, it would not be at least to those who got sick from it, but food service laws. Give me a break.
                        • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                          Tue, July 1, 2008 - 9:40 AM
                          that dictim on waterbearing referenced more the food items that are also brought around by the water bearing staff than the water itself.

                          I have seen them carting cold cuts and hard boiled eggs in the blazing hot August sun with no cover over them so that flies and other bugs can get at the food, not to mention the bacteria that will rapidly grow thanks to heat ( hello- August sun)..........not to mention the part that no one really talks about ...the care and upkeep of the water bearing utensils themselves. If thre is not food service compliant proceedure for making certain that all waterbearing containers are sterylized then there is also the possability of getting a bit of mold on the inside of one of the containers if it was stored wet......and what do you do if there is a fighter out there on the field who has a severe mold allergiy who then goes and drinks water from a container that has had some mold growing in the bottom ( not enough to relly register to the naked eye or upset the average person, but more than enough to kill this guy)?

                          Again, I think it is wonderful that people volunteer for Waterbearing, I think it is a great thing to have a group of people there administering liquids and protein to fighters.....but I do agree that for safety sake there should be some basic food handeling proceeduresd in place to make sure we are not running the risk of creating more problems than the service alleviates.

                          And ultimately as Pennsic and the SCA itself get larger those concerns are more apt to be noted and acted upon. When the SCA was smaller and before we had been hit with liability law suits we were blissfully ignoring the overly litiginous tendancies of modern society..........but your perspective changes once you have been smacked with one of those suits and you do everything in your power to make as certain as you possibly can that you are not ignorantly leaving yourself open to another one of them.

                          For me....I agree smacking in the head with brick is necessary....but the person we are thinking of smacking in the head is very different I suspect Ystyll, because I am inclined to say "WTF were you thinking taking perishable items like cold cuts and hardboiled eggs out there in the blazing hot sun in open trays with no kind of cooling system for them or means of keeping flies out etc? As well as WTF were you thinking not having sterylization protocol for the water bearing containers themselves?" to the person(s) in charge of waterbearing that made these illa advised choices even befroe we knew about the whole food services regulations thingy. These are just good safety common sense type of things!

                          You know there are fighters who don't abide by the courtesy practice of not actually touching their mouth to the container.....and before you say I am being overly worrisome about the whole thing....read this:

                          en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoid_Mary

                          I ain't sayin', I'm just sayin'.
                          • Re: out of the Pennsic loop

                            Wed, July 2, 2008 - 7:02 AM
                            Dunno who in their right minds would be eating hard boiled eggs. It would come right back up on me. The cold cuts, if they are a cured meat will not grow much on them. Too much salt, and other preservatives. Same with the pickles. When I was stationed in DC back in the mid 80's there was a modern Typhoid Mary working for Mc Donalds in the area. It was what killed their shrimp salad. She got a number of people sick. Even more embarrassing, is there is a measurable percentage of folks with Neisseria sp. as normal flora. That is right oral borne clap. Think about that next time a bottle of something gets passed to you.
                            The scary one today is the Rhino Virus. A number of eateries have been shut down, and scrubbed with bleach to hell and back, due to that one. Don't need direct contact for it either. One of the local cases had it spread from the ill employee rolling silverware. Just about all those epidemics could have prevented from not letting a sick worker call off or go home. I never let ill employees work in my pizza shop. It was an easy way to get off of work, but after you called sick a couple times, you had better start bringing in doctors slips, letting me know exactly when you were allowed back to work. We could go to lister bags like the military does for large events, but someone would have to write a protocol for them, and oversee it. Or start to require that fighters check in with 1 gallon of water marked with their name. That would put most of the onus back on the participants, and keep us clear. I always brought my own water and electrolyte mixture before my knee blew, and I could bang on people with sticks. Harder to deal with during something like the woods battle. I do not see really much a change to water bearing, except it will not be officially organized. If anything since the SCA will not be running it, more people will come out to the battles, since we now have to water our own. They may have to call more general holds since it will be chaotic. Or we will get more people dropping from heat related illnesses. Damned if you, and damned if you don't Small events no problems really, but with the scale of the wars, it will at the least make things go longer on the field.